The Kapo System Of Aviation Regulation and CASA
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The Kapo System Of Aviation Regulation and CASA
A kapo or prisoner functionary (German: Funktionshäftling, see § Etymology) was a prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp who was assigned by the SS guards to supervise forced labor or carry out administrative tasks. Also called "prisoner self-administration", the prisoner functionary system minimized costs by allowing camps to function with fewer SS personnel. The system was designed to turn victim against victim, as the prisoner functionaries were pitted against their fellow prisoners in order to maintain the favor of their SS overseers. If they were derelict, they would be returned to the status of ordinary prisoners and be subject to other kapos. Many prisoner functionaries were recruited from the ranks of violent criminal gangs rather than from the more numerous political, religious, and racial prisoners; such criminal convicts were known for their brutality toward other prisoners. This brutality was tolerated by the SS and was an integral part of the camp system...from Wikipedia.
For such a system to work there need to be strong checks and balances, not only in the relationship between CASA and associations but between the association and its members. Without these in place, self regulation is jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.
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First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
For such a system to work there need to be strong checks and balances, not only in the relationship between CASA and associations but between the association and its members.
You sound like some sort of populist or socialist.
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Sunny says
"What a quaint idea" said the banks. "How yesterday. Royal Commission? Why? Nothing to see here"
For such a system to work there need to be strong checks and balances
Lookleft,
As far back as the 1960s, DCA "enforcement" was referred to as the "Airstapo", particularly by ATC personnel, it ain't new.
Among various associations, over the years there has been no shortage of examples of "enforcement" behavior that, to say the least, lacked procedural fairness, the usual process was to "know" the victim was guilty, with actual legal standard of proof regarded as an unnecessary impediment to summary conviction.
How does the saying go?? "Give a little man a little power".
Sunfish is spot on with his concerns.
Tootle pip!!
As far back as the 1960s, DCA "enforcement" was referred to as the "Airstapo", particularly by ATC personnel, it ain't new.
Among various associations, over the years there has been no shortage of examples of "enforcement" behavior that, to say the least, lacked procedural fairness, the usual process was to "know" the victim was guilty, with actual legal standard of proof regarded as an unnecessary impediment to summary conviction.
How does the saying go?? "Give a little man a little power".
Sunfish is spot on with his concerns.
Tootle pip!!
So LS CASA has an anti-semetic policy? Is advocating Liebenstraum for its employees? Believes that its genetic superiority puts it above all other races? Swear allegiance to Adolf Hitler? When you start accusing people of being NAZIs thats what you are essentially saying. At the same time you are shredding any semblance of credibility that you may have had. Western democracies have always had bureaucracies that exercise unfettered powers if they are allowed to but to start putting them in the same ideological box as the NAZIs just means you have lost the plot. Just take a deep breath old man and think about what you and Sunfish are suggesting.
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I know some CASA minions and they aint all that bad really.
To be honest I think the system CASA is managing is so big and complex much like the financial industry and no one really knows how it all really works so they keep on finding ways to "improve/optimise" it without understanding the overall consequences.
To be honest I think the system CASA is managing is so big and complex much like the financial industry and no one really knows how it all really works so they keep on finding ways to "improve/optimise" it without understanding the overall consequences.
Lookleft,
I am not accusing anybody of anything, I am merely stating a fact if life, particularly for ATC, in the '60's, when I first came across the expression, thanks to a couple of regular drinking mates, who worked in Sydney Center. That was about the time tape recorders became a whole new weapon in the hands of the DCA "enforcers" (if you prefer that expression) to make life miserable for working controllers.
Get down of your high horse, and check your history, the Gestapo were not exclusively concerned with the Jewish population, and I rather suspect you are confusing the Gestapo and the Schutzstaffel aka SS.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Before you lose the view from your high horse, just take another look, I didn't make any reference the Nazi. And I am not Sunfish.
I am not accusing anybody of anything, I am merely stating a fact if life, particularly for ATC, in the '60's, when I first came across the expression, thanks to a couple of regular drinking mates, who worked in Sydney Center. That was about the time tape recorders became a whole new weapon in the hands of the DCA "enforcers" (if you prefer that expression) to make life miserable for working controllers.
Get down of your high horse, and check your history, the Gestapo were not exclusively concerned with the Jewish population, and I rather suspect you are confusing the Gestapo and the Schutzstaffel aka SS.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Before you lose the view from your high horse, just take another look, I didn't make any reference the Nazi. And I am not Sunfish.
Thread Starter
Godwin's law refers to Nazi references in the comments on a thread, not on the originating post. My opinion is still that we do not need a bunch of unaccountable "CASA Mini Me 's " replacing CASA that CASA will control through its pernicious practice of issuing temporary exemptions that can be revoked at its discretion.
Just ask RAA and SAAA what it feels like when an exemption renewal date draws near.
Just ask RAA and SAAA what it feels like when an exemption renewal date draws near.
Sunfish, if you spent as much time working on your aircraft kit as you do complaining on here about CASA you'd have been finished and flying now and looking for the best priced engine overhaul ! Raaus and SAAA have been around a long time... it's like you don't want them to be as you are forever bringing up their exemptions and how at the tick of a box they are gone... have I got that right ?
Thread Starter
It's too cold to work on the aircraft at 8.38 am, its zero outside. Besides, my wife tells me that I have chores to do. I would dearly like to be flying but the nearest airport with a school is an hour and a half drive both ways. Of course, barring a bank sized stuff up, RAA and SAAA will be around. My concern is what they might morph into if CASA has its way.
I have already had a taste of that via the yachting clubs and associations, the restrictions and administrative hoops to keep a yacht grow every year now. insurance, safety certificates and audits, classification of vessels, prescribed annual drills, courses and accreditations, minimum crew composition, etc., etc. - all in the name of "safety" of course.
I have already had a taste of that via the yachting clubs and associations, the restrictions and administrative hoops to keep a yacht grow every year now. insurance, safety certificates and audits, classification of vessels, prescribed annual drills, courses and accreditations, minimum crew composition, etc., etc. - all in the name of "safety" of course.
In case it has escaped your notice LeadSled the 60's were over 50 years ago! I am well aware of the differences between the Gestapo and the SS which makes Sunfish's original post and your subsequent post so absurd.
Unfortunately, the attitudes of the era have only been reinforced as the years have gone on, referring to the "enforcers" of CASA as the "Airstapo" is still current, as is the expression "iron ring" for the "real" management of CASA.
If CASA were such a reasonable outfit, why does it have the national and international reputation it has, and why have there been so many inquiries into CASA and its predecessors, including Royal Commissions, and the longest Commonwealth inquiry since Federation??
Why the frequency of AAT cases, compared to almost all but the Immigration and Taxation mobs, given the very small size of the aviation sector, particularly the GA part that generates virtually all the AAT cases??
Get rid of your rose colored glasses and have a look at the real world.
Why do we even need an "aviation summit".
Why has Anthony Albanese produced a Labor aviation policy that includes an overhaul of CASA (again).
Why has Qantas established a major maintenance operation in USA??
Tootle pip!!
PS: Australia/CASA was absent from the list of those involved in the development of the new FAR 23, does that tell you anything, the list included NZ, CA, China CAAC, UK and several EU countries as well as EASA??
PS2: A good friend, who is generally well and accurately informed, says that CASA generates more formal enforcement actions per annum than the FAA, can you explain that, beyond claiming that the aviation sector in AU is made up of a high proportion of criminals.
I know some CASA minions and they aint all that bad really.
To be honest I think the system CASA is managing is so big and complex much like the financial industry and no one really knows how it all really works so they keep on finding ways to "improve/optimise" it without understanding the overall consequences.
To be honest I think the system CASA is managing is so big and complex much like the financial industry and no one really knows how it all really works so they keep on finding ways to "improve/optimise" it without understanding the overall consequences.
Big and Complex??
You speak in jest, of course.
One major airline group -- about the size of an outstation for a US major.
One smaller airline group, a statistical rounding error by US or EU standards.
A small and diminishing number of small regional carriers.
Most larger business aircraft not even on the VH- register.
A shrinking GA sector, a fraction of the size of 20 years ago.
A list of "approved" maintenance orgs. a fraction of even ten years ago.
"Heavy" maintenance has largely disappeared from Australia.
Avgas sales down about 40% in the last several years.
What manufacturing there is mostly being conducted on FAA or EASA approvals.
A flying training sector that has almost disappeared , except for a handful doing contract airline cadet training --- a pale shadow of even NZ.
Big and complex???
Tootle pip!!
Well, golly gee, the '60's were over long ago, who'd a thunk it??
As for Albanese don't hold your breath. He will be going to Wagga with his class struggle ideology front and centre. Where some see hard working businessman he will see the privileged classes who need to be squeezed harder to get the money to support the welfare state.
Lookleft,
I really have no idea where you fit into the aviation scene, but ascribing such as the Forsyth Report and many previous and invariably highly critical reports, including Royal Commissions, into CASA and its predecessors as "noise from below" take self-delusion to a new level.
Indeed, the contempt you generally exhibit towards anybody who does not subscribe to your views is, in my view, a dead giveaway.
As for the opinions which I rely upon, they are the unvarnished opinions of real people , all highly respected in their specialties, not publications that have been subject to the sort of "politically diplomatic cleansing" that is typical of government/ICAO and similar public documents.
Indeed, to quote and old friend of mine, ICAO lead auditor, some time ago during a CASA audit, over lunch in Canberra: "(my name), if this was an airline, you would have to pull its certificate".
In the real world, CASA/Australia's reputation has not only not improved since that time, but deteriorated significantly.
All to the very great cost of Australian aviation businesses that used to be, that are struggling, or should be but never will be.
If CASA is such an exemplary organisation, why are Australia's overall air safety outcomes significantly inferior to US??
Why has the US air safety record steadily improved, while Australia has remained (comparing like for like) essentially static??
Tootle pip!!
I really have no idea where you fit into the aviation scene, but ascribing such as the Forsyth Report and many previous and invariably highly critical reports, including Royal Commissions, into CASA and its predecessors as "noise from below" take self-delusion to a new level.
Indeed, the contempt you generally exhibit towards anybody who does not subscribe to your views is, in my view, a dead giveaway.
As for the opinions which I rely upon, they are the unvarnished opinions of real people , all highly respected in their specialties, not publications that have been subject to the sort of "politically diplomatic cleansing" that is typical of government/ICAO and similar public documents.
Indeed, to quote and old friend of mine, ICAO lead auditor, some time ago during a CASA audit, over lunch in Canberra: "(my name), if this was an airline, you would have to pull its certificate".
In the real world, CASA/Australia's reputation has not only not improved since that time, but deteriorated significantly.
All to the very great cost of Australian aviation businesses that used to be, that are struggling, or should be but never will be.
If CASA is such an exemplary organisation, why are Australia's overall air safety outcomes significantly inferior to US??
Why has the US air safety record steadily improved, while Australia has remained (comparing like for like) essentially static??
Tootle pip!!