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GENERAL AVIATION SUMMIT 2018 - 9th & 10th JULY 2018

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GENERAL AVIATION SUMMIT 2018 - 9th & 10th JULY 2018

Old 18th May 2018, 06:20
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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The focus must be "get the act changed" without that nothing will happen.
With it all the rest may follow.
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Old 18th May 2018, 10:47
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by thorn bird View Post
The focus must be "get the act changed" without that nothing will happen.
With it all the rest may follow.
Not quite.


The focus must be on “get the act changed so that it says ....”.


Plus a number of other specific actions.
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Old 18th May 2018, 21:49
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Sunfish, agreed but one correction; PS = Public Service, no, now Public Sector

What used to be called the PS. Often these days they refer to themselves as the Public Sector. In effect a new phenomenon, whereby the resources of the State are in competition with the private sector. They are in a winning position because, at the conclusion of the exercise of their power they have the police and courts to enforce their superiority. Ask Clark Butson, quoted as saying he spent $1 million dollars in legal costs to prove that CASA can do anything they like.
Further to Sunfish’s logical opinion and recounting from experience the traps that are set and waiting, I too have seen it over and over again. There’s the matter of principle as well, no matter how many associations are represented they are not the elected representatives of the Nation. As Sunfish points out they maybe gulled into thinking that they have taken power to effect change, but this is wrong. Should the foot come off the pedal don’t expect Minister McCormack to make the changes that are desperately needed.
Remember high hopes or soft soaps 2014? What happened to the Forsyth report and government agreed recommendations?
The only way the Summit will get anywhere will be to tell McCormack that the GA industry will work to unseat him in his electorate and it will not send delegations to Canberra until he has changed the Act and agreed to the FARs. In addition the reps should tell the same story to all their MPs throughout the country. In other words a real political campaign.

Last edited by Sandy Reith; 18th May 2018 at 22:06. Reason: Minor change Summit instead of Wagga...
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Old 19th May 2018, 00:11
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Remember high hopes or soft soaps 2014? What happened to the Forsyth report and government agreed recommendations?
The only way the Summit will get anywhere will be to tell McCormack that the GA industry will work to unseat him in his electorate and it will not send delegations to Canberra until he has changed the Act and agreed to the FARs. In addition the reps should tell the same story to all their MPs throughout the country. In other words a real political campaign.
IMHO your chances of getting the Act changed now are probably zero. remember a federal election is coming in 2019. that creates a legislative scramble and a new government is not bound to follow through on any pre-election actions. in fact, from memory a new government won't even have access to the working documents of the old one.

it would be a poor public servant who can't stall you until the election is called. so what's to do at a summit? get your demands sorted and tell the PS what's coming, whether they like it or not and that you are going to make them change via naked political pressure, nothing personal of course.

AND you may soon have a perfect opportunity to test negative political campaigning - assuming the Mayo by-election is called in SA (also fremantle, Longman, Braddon and Perth). threaten to run a campaign via leaflet: "don't vote Downer", etc. this is your only hope. it's the one source of power you have. CASA, RAAF, Qantas and all the other supposed demons can't vote or run political campaigns. You can. hopefully AOPA will take the lead. You CAN make a difference, the election margin between libs and labor in longman was about 1%.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayo_by-election,_2018

Last edited by Sunfish; 19th May 2018 at 01:27.
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Old 19th May 2018, 02:53
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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A chance for reform, the impetus of political forces

Following Sunfish, we can only hope that the chances are somewhat better than zero. But I too believe that AOPA might be heading into the sticky web of Canberra, a glittering cave of promises but hidden vaults full of the skeletons of previous hopefuls.
Take on Downer at by-election? Doubt sufficient resources, but a ginger group to confront candidates and get their commitment to reform would be useful. Questionnaires to all MPs and future candidates with a base shop front office in Wagga, and one candidate for McCormack here, would be the type of campaign that might tip the balance.
Lastly we have slipped a month already, presumably to get McC and Albo to the Summit. We need them to understand we are not interested in listening to them or going off to Canberra. We will not waste time collaborating with Department or Canberra unless the Act is changed to include sustainability and they are fully committed to FAA/NZ rules.
Reminded by a respected colleague that CASRs Parts 23-35 were directly off FAA Parts 23-35, a major reform that was accomplished 20 years ago. The outdated Aussie rules were dumped for those areas. Now for the rest, it’s not difficult.
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Old 19th May 2018, 03:02
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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we don't need to take on Downer or anyone else. a simple leaflet drop in letterboxes saying 'don't vote for xxxx" with a few made up reasons is all that is required.
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Old 19th May 2018, 03:45
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Brings to mind the nearly year long freeze,(caretaker mode government), when Gillard called an election well in advance of the norm. Yes just one visit to The GG will hold everything up. Changing the Minister only adds another year to that to bring him/her/ whatever, up to speed.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 04:16
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Is this the AOPA that was crowing about medical "reform" having been achieved.?
There has been zero, zilch, zip, nada, gar nichts, in the way of meaningful medical reform of the Class 2 in Australia. NONE. Just a very small re-organisation of CASA's administration thereof leaving Australia way out of step with the USA and the UK.
AOPA will continue to be as useless as ever and many of the organisations at this summit have a vested interest in the status quo. I know of a couple where the "leadership" isn't representative of the membership.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 04:33
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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The first Minister to actually take CASA behind the barn and put an end its (and our) misery will become incredibly famous in Australian aviation and leave a lasting legacy. We may even put statues of him at airports. How much would you like that Minister?
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Old 22nd May 2018, 05:07
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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We may even put statues of him at airports. How much would you like that Minister?
How about beside the Captain Cook Statue only twice as tall?
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Old 22nd May 2018, 08:48
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Medical reform etc.

Originally Posted by Eyrie View Post
Is this the AOPA that was crowing about medical "reform" having been achieved.?
There has been zero, zilch, zip, nada, gar nichts, in the way of meaningful medical reform of the Class 2 in Australia. NONE. Just a very small re-organisation of CASA's administration thereof leaving Australia way out of step with the USA and the UK.
AOPA will continue to be as useless as ever and many of the organisations at this summit have a vested interest in the status quo. I know of a couple where the "leadership" isn't representative of the membership.
Understanding your frustration but your judgment, with respect, is overly harsh. I’ve recently received my Class2 renewal, though late but with one very different condition. For the first time a report on a condition that they require may come from my GP. In addition it’s too early to completely discount the reforms that Mr. Carmody has promised.

Considering how well AOPA is getting publicity and winning new members, joining with and supporting Dick Smith’s change the Act push, this is a far cry from useless, not to mention many other wins. Also you may not be aware of it’s program to get young people engaged, a great initiative which has had many young people gain an aviation experience which would never have happened without Ben Morgan, Marc De Stoop and the new Board of AOPA.

It has also pulled together, with many other organisations, a meeting with Minister McCormack and Mr. Albanese in July. No mean feat and more than anyone has done in many a long year. You are correct that some will consider their own interests more than the greater good. This is always a human nature trait that good leadership will overcome by presenting a case for the practical outcomes of changes that will improve conditions for the aviation industry as a whole. The self interest instinct is the basic flaw in calling for concensus. Concensus is a concept that is difficult to pin down as the Summit meeting will likely find out. At this point strong leadership will diplomatically discount the voice or voices of dissent and declare the agreed position fixed by the majority. A position that should, as far as is possible, be agreed before the meeting. I’m hoping that the Summit will explain;
1. The time for talk has passed.
2. We will not be sending delegates to Canberra without framed legislation pending.
3. We will be taking strong political action.
4. We expect legislation to be expedited to change the Act and the remainder of the FARs (or NZ rules) to be introduced as were, 20 years ago, CASR Parts 23-35, drawn from FAA Parts 23-35. Replacing those parts of out of date Aussie rules which were dumped. It can be done, it’s actually part done, now finish the job.
5. We expect that strict liability be removed and that criminality be via the general law, ie reckless or malicious behaviour in any field is quite sufficient as it is throughout the land.
6. All references to licence “privileges” be removed or not inserted into the reformed rules. It is our right to fly within reasonable rules, this medieval notion, privilege in law, is derived from the Crown being the only one with rights and therefore doling out privileges, the Royal patronage (‘mon droit’).
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Old 22nd May 2018, 09:20
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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" may come from my GP."
The key word is "may". Your GP might just kick it to CASA.

"Considering how well AOPA is getting publicity and winning new members, joining with and supporting Dick Smith’s change the Act push, this is a far cry from useless, not to mention many other wins. Also you may not be aware of it’s program to get young people engaged, a great initiative which has had many young people gain an aviation experience which would never have happened without Ben Morgan, Marc De Stoop and the new Board of AOPA."

Very nice for AOPA to be getting new members etc but it doesn't do anything about the ridiculous regulation we are under.

Now about:
"There has been zero, zilch, zip, nada, gar nichts, in the way of meaningful medical reform of the Class 2 in Australia. NONE. Just a very small re-organisation of CASA's administration thereof leaving Australia way out of step with the USA and the UK."

Where exactly am I wrong? Whoop dee doo, your GPS may certify a certain condition. CASA AVMED can still take that and demand a specialist's report.

Did you read the 160 odd submissions to CASA on medical reform? I did. What we have is NOTHING and certainly nothing like the vast majority of the submissions, including from a former CASA Chief Medical Officer. We are way out of line with recent UK and US medical reform.

Combine that with with utterly stupid and impractical maintenance regs (modeled on the EASA regs) and we are the most stupidly, highly regulated, aviators in the anglosphere. Even EASA has realised its maintenance regs are impractical for light aircraft and gliders and are changing them.

See here:
https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/EASA_GA_ROADMAP_2018_EN_final.pdf




As for your point 6.


6. All references to licence “privileges” be removed or not inserted into the reformed rules. It is our right to fly within reasonable rules, this medieval notion, privilege in law, is derived from the Crown being the only one with rights and therefore doling out privileges, the Royal patronage (‘mon droit’).

I completely agree. "Privilege" has no place in a liberal democracy which Australia at least used to be and still pretends to be. Unfortunately subjects in Australia ( that is what we are, not citizens) have utterly no rights when it comes to what the government wants to do to you
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Old 22nd May 2018, 10:48
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eyrie View Post
Is this the AOPA that was crowing about medical "reform" having been achieved.?
There has been zero, zilch, zip, nada, gar nichts, in the way of meaningful medical reform of the Class 2 in Australia. NONE. Just a very small re-organisation of CASA's administration thereof leaving Australia way out of step with the USA and the UK.
<snip>.
I agree with you, except for the bit I snipped.

On medical certification ‘reform’ AOPA suffered an embarrassing episode of what doctors call ‘premature congratulation’. Have a look at the conditions on the instrument of delegation here: https://www.casa.gov.au/file/199061/...token=sWAvultt

Effectively, the DAME’s clinical opinion is dictated by CASA. Then there’s all the scary stuff about professional indemnity insurance. And here https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-pag...ter-april-2018 the PMO says: “This authorisation is provided under CASA delegation CASA 26/18. Please make sure you read all the conditions and understand your obligations in relation to exercising this delegation (it is important to note that although you will be a delegate of CASA, you are not indemnified by us.” [bolding added]

Amazing the PMO didn’t mention CAAP Admin 1 here: https://www.casa.gov.au/file/104516/...token=2TL92Ahp that says, at page 5, that CASA will indemnify non-CASA delegates.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 13:30
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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And the sad fact is that not only is the Australian aviation industry (all of it, not just GA) commercially debilitated, but despite delusional claims to the contrary, as a result we have an inferior air safety outcome, compared to the USA.
Effectively, the DAME’s clinical opinion is dictated by CASA. Then there’s all the scary stuff about professional indemnity insurance. And here https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-pag...ter-april-2018 the PMO says: “This authorisation is provided under CASA delegation CASA 26/18. Please make sure you read all the conditions and understand your obligations in relation to exercising this delegation (it is important to note that although you will be a delegate of CASA, you are not indemnified by us.” [bolding added]

Amazing the PMO didn’t mention CAAP Admin 1 here: https://www.casa.gov.au/file/104516/...token=2TL92Ahp that says, at page 5, that CASA will indemnify non-CASA delegates.
If what I read is true, then maybe a headline working approach could be:
CASA FAILURE - INDUSTRY IN CRISIS. DESPITE MASSIVE NEW REGULATIONS - SAFETY FOR AUSTRALIAN GENERAL AVIATION IS NOW INFERIOR COMPARED TO OTHER COUNTRIES - PARLIAMENT ACTION NEEDED NOW.
Might get some action. Will definitely get a RE-action. Pauline will probably be on side.
Anyway, AOPA is the best option us small (and lots of bigger) guys have.
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Old 22nd May 2018, 14:47
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Independent instructors are a necessity

Originally Posted by Horatio Leafblower View Post
Thanks Outnabout,
That's my question too.
Every time I speak to Ben Morgan he talks about Freelance flight instructors (will kill small flying schools, not big ones) and private Ride Share for PPLs in the UK (will hurt small charter organisations, not airlines or big charter orgs like Fly Corporate).

AOPA's approach has kicked the door down. Now that we're inside, I just hope we aren't wearing a suicide explosive belt
As one who ran my own school from the ‘70s for about 25 years I would agree with Ben Morgan’s call for independent instructors. ”Freelance” or independent instructors will not kill small flying schools they will create them. The last few small GA schools will mostly be gone by the time of transition deadline August. Where there used to be schools in hundreds of country towns there are now practically none, you can’t kill them twice.

No healthy training industry equals the death of GA. Call them independent or instructing without the totally unworkable AOC dog’s breakfast, including the super costly paperwork nightmare that is the latest flying school regime, either way it must change. A senior instructor near me had to put up $8000 just to start a school application. Two years later still nothing. In the US where 70% are trained by independent instructors, the instructor mentioned would have been training from day One.

Without pilots the cake shrinks to nothing, more pilots equals more cake to go around. Any of the few schools left will be busy training instructors to go out into the regions. In turn they need aircraft, maintenance, fuel etc.

In the past flying schools have baulked at the idea of the independent instructor for a short sighted fear of losing business, and CASA hated the idea of losing fees and power. I think most schools now would be less enthusiastic for that argument. In any case its up to government to do what is right for Australian aviation irrespective of sectional interest.

PPL cost sharing we had for years, for private ops up to 6 place aircraft. Small charter operators? Nearly all gone like the GA flying schools. Charter AOCs are nearly as impossible as is the regime for flying schools. A local Ag pilot with his own light twin thought to offer charter only to be told by his CASA FOI “don’t bother it’s all too hard.”

We have a very sick system, the fee gouging salary factory will not go down without a serious fight. They will gull the unwary with ploys and inducements, they will slow, stall or move at a creeping pace. They will whisper in the Minister’s ear all sorts of dire consequences and distortions, the MO ably put by Sunfish in this string.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 08:56
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn't be surprised if Ben Morgan has already been "captured" by CASA, especially if the rumor of a CASA overture to let RAAOz run private GA has any truth. That move would leave AOPA gasping for air in my opinion.

As I asked before; who is drawing up the agenda for the summit? Who is taking minutes? Who is running the steering committee for the summit and who is on it?

Hearing nothing, my expectation is that negotiations have been "taken private". I therefore expect nothing further on PPRuNe and/or to be told to pull my head in.

To paraphrase Sir Humphrey Appleby; never hold a summit unless you already have determined the outcome. The Public service are masters at this game.

I am hoping that somewhere there is an AOPA steering committee with maybe a few QC's with aviation interests advising them.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 10:23
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Sunfish and AOPA QC hopes.

Whoever is has the running will need nothing more than resolve.
QCs might help but this is a political problem.
Sunfish and others have detailed the pitfalls, for the first time most industry people know what has to be done. Now everyone should be making representations to their MPs and Senators.
In addition to the Summit representatives meeting there should be a plenary session with all invited. Would someone else organise this if AOPA won’t, can’t or too busy?
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Old 23rd May 2018, 13:07
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn't be surprised if Ben Morgan has already been "captured" by CASA
What's your proof? It's a pity that HIA, the Air Ag Assoc and RAAA aren't attending the Summit and voice their opinions and show a united front to McCormack in his home town. Agree that a small steering committee be selected to carry the agenda forward. If we don't those looking for tall poppies win again!
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Old 23rd May 2018, 23:05
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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TBM and others. What concerns me is that CASA has probably said: "So tell us how you want the Act changed?" and then AOPA takes the bait and presents an impossibly long laundry list of proposals for CASA to inspect, prod and otherwise play with, obfuscating real change by drowning us in detail and watching the associations fighting among themselves. The way of getting bogged down in detail and turf wars only leads to madness and defeat.

What needs to be asked for is a new act that facilitates free market principles that stimulate jobs, investment and growth. Nothing more, nothing less.. All else flows naturally from that - new regs, better medical behaviour, airports, etc., etc. That's why I wrote the "the vision thing".

The reason I hoped for senior legal involvement (Oh for a flying High Court Judge!) is because the exact wording matters greatly and QC's understand this and how to wrap up a concept in a few pithy sentences. If you don't believe me, try understanding the many meanings of the phrase: "for the benefit of the Australian Economy".

I could put that another way but won't out of respect.

P.S. The rumor of CASA allegedly proposing to free light aircraft from the rules by consigning them to the tender ministrations of RAAOz, if true, is the most vicious proposal I have heard for a long time. It is akin to a cornered serial killer with a cellar full of captives proposing to release one of his victims in return for being allowed to kill the rest.
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Old 24th May 2018, 01:22
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Quoting Sunfish:- “What concerns me is that CASA has probably said: "So tell us how you want the Act changed?" and then AOPA takes the bait.”

I heard that AOPA considers that they are “inside the tent.” My rejoinder was that Minister McCormack should approaching us to be inside our tent. In other words they would have the suggested wording for the amendment to the Act in their pocket for our approval along with the commitment to proceed with FAR/ NZ rules.

Regarding amendment wording, if memory serves, the suggested wording has had legal input already. If it was legislated it would go through the normal procedures and be vetted by senior Commonwealth legal officers. Would we trust them to do the job? If the Minister is pursuing reform in good faith we would hope so. The proviso being that the whole of CGI, Canberra (now pop. 403,000) Government Industries, is heavily dependent on taxing us in many more ways than just money. It has a vested interest in maintaining maximum power, axiomatically depriving us of our freedoms and reducing National prosperity.

Times have changed, once we had a Public Service, now they often call themselves the Public Sector and act in many ways like a competitor to private enterprise, fee gouging as one example. Much of the government today is performed by an informal conglomerate of very high salary independent Commonwealth corporate bodies, Commissioners and Ombudsmen, all in including Departments said to be 1200 in total. Naturally they all serve each other to some extent, probably by instinctive self preservation (aggrandisement?) more than by design. Employment is fluid between them. The perceived collaboration of the newly independent ATSB (2009) with CASA over the botched Rex/PelAir ditching investigation is a case in point.

Back to a previous discussion (Eyrie thank you) in regard to Mr. Carmody’s AVMED reforms; i.e. to date that they were nil. Thinking again this may well be true looking at the advice to DAMEs where the ‘92 Advisory of DAME insurance indemnity cover by CASA seems contradicted by the latest advice to the DAMEs. Therefore medical reform remains to be seen.

My latest Class 2 has just been issued weeks past my DAME granted two month grace period. No explanation or apology for the delay, a careless omission which I will take to my MP for redress. If we don’t employ our representatives like this they cannot serve us properly.
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