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Are Australian flying instructors being "poached" by airlines?

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Are Australian flying instructors being "poached" by airlines?

Old 20th Apr 2018, 14:33
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Are Australian flying instructors being "poached" by airlines?

The Australian (20 April 2018) Aviation Editor Annabel Hepworth writes "the push comes amid a shortage of flight instructors in which airlines have been poaching flight instructors to work as pilots."

While her comment may reflect the situation in USA, it does not happen in Australia, so why imply it is the case here? The average flying instructor in Australia would be utterly delighted to be asked to join an airline; both for the pleasure of flying an airliner and the excellent terms and conditions. They don't need to be "poached."
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Old 20th Apr 2018, 23:41
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Poached? Isn’t this simply a normal progression through the industry for those who chose this pathway?
What will be interesting will be to see how many grade 1 instructors will be around to fill CFI positions and grade 2s to supervise grade 3s. It took the Flying training industry several years to recover from the last big airline intake about 12 years ago. This, combined with CASAs regulation reform program, should see a real shortage of pilots over the next few years. CASA will likely be regulating a handful of 141/142 organisations within the next 5 years. The majority of country Flying schools and aeroclubs have closed up shop as they find the new regulations too difficult.
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 00:13
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Folks,
It has actually got to the situation that for any young person looking at a flying career (or just a PPL , really) it is worthwhile looking at getting an initial license in NZ, US or Canada.
The costs here have gone through the roof, choice is less and less, and for many, the "licence factories" only do a minimum job.
Sure, if you want to convert to an Australian licence, there is some additional expense involved, but I will go so far as to say that, with honorable exceptions, the basic "stick and rudder" grounding you will get in NZ/US/Canada will be, sadly, better than here.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 01:23
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Except that, if you do it overseas you will miss out on the VET FEE thing that so many of the big schools here rort like there’s no tomorrow...

So, for the potential learner pilot in AUS - there is a real risk of getting “minimal” (aka rubbish) training from a sausage factory with the added pineapple that although VET FEE sounds great - it will leave you as a financial ruin for perhaps the first half of your career, all things being considered...

I would hope Australian hopefuls would stay and learn to fly here - taking the business OS does nothing to fix the problem and support the industry here, which further condemns it. However, the path long trodden is still the best, in the long run - pay as you go at a school you’re comfortable with (ignore any school with photos of airliners frequently associated with their basic training product!), flip burgers at McDonalds, pump gas or pour beers at a bar to fund it, and 2-3 years down the track you will have a CPL that you own. Then head off to the NT or similar with no financial encumbrance and enjoy the adventure!

I’m fairly sure the recruiters at QF / JQ / Virgin et al will still respect that upbringing in the years to come - especially if you’ve learnt your stuff well alongside the way!

Re Instructors - poaching is not the word, but somehow we need to make this vocation a respectable goal for a flying career, not just a disrespected starting point... Ideas anyone??
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 07:28
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Realistic training in the real environment with a lot of sweat, dirt, challenging clientele and aircraft that leak a few juices that the pilot must manage and clean up might be a good starting point - And a bucket loud of Napisan to clean the stains out of the white shirts. Piston pilots have black stained shirts, turbine pilots have orange stained shirts.

Glossy photos of airliners in flying school promo material is false advertising.
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 07:53
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I’m fairly sure the recruiters at QF / JQ / Virgin et al will still respect that upbringing in the years to come - especially if you’ve learnt your stuff well alongside the way!
Flying Bear,
But you have introduced a pretty big "IF" there, and it is a serious problem, training to the absolute minimum academic (if you can even call it that) standard to pass CASA exams, and to stick and rudder standards that "old school" like me would have queried in a PPL flight test, in years gone by.
Then the much vaunted time "in the bush" to reinforce all too often deficient training --- consolidating bad habits.
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 08:22
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And a bucket loud of Napisan to clean the stains out of the white shirts. Piston pilots have black stained shirts, turbine pilots have orange stained shirts.
One of the basic trueisms of Aviation.

Glossy photos of airliners in flying school promo material is false advertising.
"Many are called but few are chosen."
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 08:30
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Leadie,

My observation is that the bad habits are often taught (or allowed to form) in the sausage factory schools purporting to be airline academies... However, I note this is more a function of the individual instructor than the school in probably most cases - the big schools tend to be inundated with very low time instructors who are ignorant of the training standards required and simply chop through a syllabus.

The much vaunted time in the bush is invaluable for experience, problem solving and command development skills - but must be accompanied by good mentoring if its value is to be realised / maximised and the bad habits from the flying school are to be fixed.

I can’t imagine QF is the place to be teaching these kids a basic crosswind technique, or IAP profile management. Not when I’m in the back enjoying a beer, anyway!
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 12:02
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Exactly my point Pinky, BS propaganda advertising by some flying schools are only marketing tactics to get people learning to fly, pitched at young people who have financial backing.

Last edited by Duck Pilot; 21st Apr 2018 at 23:03.
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 13:25
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Realistic training in the real environment with a lot of sweat, dirt, challenging clientele and aircraft that leak a few juices
Which means never record defects in the maintenance release without first asking the owner if it's OK with him.

Then head off to the NT or similar with no financial encumbrance and enjoy the adventure!
And risk losing your job if flying with an unscrupulous operator. Now that's what I call realistic training in the real GA environment
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 13:44
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My observation is that the bad habits are often taught (or allowed to form) in the sausage factory schools purporting to be airline academies... However, I note this is more a function of the individual instructor than the school in probably most cases - the big schools tend to be inundated with very low time instructors who are ignorant of the training standards required and simply chop through a syllabus
Now there is someone who knows what he is talking about. The low time instructor only knows what he was taught by his instructor and the process is repeated down the line from instructor to instructor. There are exceptions of course but it's a good bet the average CFI of a big school probably hasn't a clue of the real standard of every instructor under him since it is below his status to regularly fly with ab-initio students as a quality assurance check.
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 14:55
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Whilst I don’t disagree with most of what is said in this thread, if I kicked my son out at 18 and told him to:

flip burgers at McDonalds, pump gas or pour beers at a bar to fund it, and 2-3 years down the track you will have a CPL that you own.
I’m sorry, but the ship has long sailed since those kind of economics worked for student pilots.

There is absolutely no way that a young kid today can rent a room, eat, and earn a CPL by flipping burgers or pumping gas (we call it petrol), no matter how hard working he is. Have you had a look recently?

These days, there are only 2 ways a young kid can get a CPL.

1. Mum/Dad pays; or
2. Airline/Government pays.
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 16:12
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Obviously you are referring to one certain operator Judd with that statement.

Realistic training would normally include scenarios in relation to writing defects up on the MR or Tech Log. I could understand why AOC owners or aircraft owners would get a little frustrated if pilots wrote up defects with little explanation such as autopilot U/S or #1 VHF U/S, which happens quite regularly, hence the need for some realistic training.
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 21:52
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Derfred,

Sorry mate, you’re wrong, and I don’t say that lightly...

I see young pilots working and paying for their CPL training as they go on a relatively frequent (but less common) basis as part of my daily work.

Maybe if parents taught their 18 year old sons about work ethic, and earning what they get, rather than relying on their parents, an airline or (sadly) the taxpayer (yep, those burger flippers at McDonalds and those who pump gas - sorry petrol - are the ones seemingly expected to fund someone’s 18 year old son’s flight training) then the young people of today would be better equipped to work in remote and challenging environments, with less sense of entitlement...



Make your son get a job, pay for his training and head off to learn from a good mentor. Be there to provide moral support and the wisdom of your own experience. You might be pleasantly surprised at what can still be achieved!

Last edited by Flying Bear; 21st Apr 2018 at 22:03.
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Old 21st Apr 2018, 22:25
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Poaching instructors?

It’s not poaching. It’s instructors recognising the massive divide between the GA award and an airline gig, in an environment where airline gigs are much easier to come by.

Being an instructor actually used to be a career disadvantage 15-20 years ago. 1000 hour guys from charter were always preferenced over a 3000 MEIFR grade 1 instructor. It made no sense at all, but a lot of guys got stuck in career instructing roles as a result.

In another five years time when the shortage is even more brutal, only the Australian airline with the best lifestyle and pay balance will retain crew.
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Old 22nd Apr 2018, 00:37
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Here were go again with the 'poaching' of pilots. Rex are usually the ones to wheel out this term from time to time.

It just makes me laugh how hypocritical anyone (usually business owners) who say this really are.
Back in 90s business owners were all about 'free market supply', 'shake a tree and a pilot falls out', 'plenty more people will work for less' to justify low salaries. But now the labour market has turned against them, and suddenly they've all become a bunch of socialists with people 'poaching pilots'. You can't have it both ways.
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Old 22nd Apr 2018, 01:05
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Anyone else imagining some guy from Qantas recruiting hanging around in the bushes outside Flight Schools? Pokes his head out when people come by: "Psst, hey kids, you wanna fly a shiny jet?" gives them a giant wink and gestures for them to follow him into the bushes.

Maybe Flying Schools need to hire Anti-Poachers like in Africa? Guys in Khaki to follow around the Instructors with loaded rifles ready to fend off any would-be Airline Poachers trying to take advantage of the herds roaming free?
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Old 22nd Apr 2018, 01:17
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Originally Posted by Derfred
Whilst I don’t disagree with most of what is said in this thread, if I kicked my son out at 18 and told him to:



I’m sorry, but the ship has long sailed since those kind of economics worked for student pilots.

There is absolutely no way that a young kid today can rent a room, eat, and earn a CPL by flipping burgers or pumping gas (we call it petrol), no matter how hard working he is. Have you had a look recently?

These days, there are only 2 ways a young kid can get a CPL.

1. Mum/Dad pays; or
2. Airline/Government pays.

I have to disagree with you on this.

I worked 2 jobs to get my CPL, MEA IFR & FIR.

Threw bags for the red tail carrier during the week & worked as a bouncer on weekends. I would sleep in my car in between the 2 jobs if I had to go straight from one to the other or do a quick sesh at the gym, take a shower & change at the local Anytime Fitness.

It took me 5 years to compete all of it. (Would have been quicker but I decided to go on a few holidays in between, buy a car & of course have some weekends out in town). Sometimes I wouldn't fly for weeks. Took me 6 months to self study CPL theory & IREX in between all that.

The school I trained at would let me fly & I wouldn't have to pay for weeks on end.
The place I did my FIR let me pay as I went & in the end they offered me a job straight away.

Everyone else that is working there has a VET FEE debt in the $120k mark & they are earning $42000 as a full time instructor. They finished their aviation degrees in 4 years & I finished my CPL in 5 years. The difference between us? They have a degree & ATPL's completed & I don't. We're all earning the same & flying the same. I don't have a debt at all. My training cost $80k all up. A bare CPL can be done for around $50k. You don't need to get the MEA IFR & FIR as I did.

My point being is, it is quite possible to self fund it all. Its not easy at all. It requires commitment, time & financial managment. It requires going around to training organistations & telling them what your situation is & what your goal is. Most of the little operators would be pretty willing to help you out in some form to make it a little easier.

People fall for the marketing techniques of the big operators & they sign up for a course of training overinflated in price, where across the airfield you have a smaller operator offering the same qualifications (essentially) for almost half the price.

Just the perspective of another.
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Old 22nd Apr 2018, 04:03
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So it's a perfect storm of lots of airline hiring here and overseas with fewer people entering the industry and a shortage of instructors to train them.

The exact opposite of the 1990s
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Old 22nd Apr 2018, 05:13
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Maybe if parents taught their 18 year old sons about work ethic, and earning what they get, rather than relying on their parents
Bit sexist there FB, no mention of the fair sex. To me it matters not how an individual comes by (buy) their licence, ability and inherent personality are the hall marks. I paid my own way, and the offspring's, and they went forth into the outback with no sense of entitlement. If a parent paying for the kids rating gives him/her a sense of entitlement you've failed as a parent in raising the child.

SPL, thumbs up and hope you have landed a satisfying job.
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