Hobbs/VDO, tach time and airswitch?
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I'll concede that I've not been involved in primary instruction for quite a while, but I think that if a US PPL candidate "had a go without it" on his PPL checkride, he wouldn't pass the ride. Certainly the FAA's Airman Certification Standards has "Complete the appropriate checklist." sprinkled liberally throughout. Could you pass a checkride without a checklist in Oz? I'm asking. I don't pretend to know what goes on over there, but I'm not left with the impression that CASA is more flexible and understanding than the FAA.
For the record, I don't use a printed checklist in my personal flying. I use a combination of flows and mnemonics. But I think I'd be doing a PPL a disservice training him that way. I believe that a single engine Cessna may be saffely flown without using a printed checklist, but I don't think that belief is shared by the people who will be issuing the certificate.
For the record, I don't use a printed checklist in my personal flying. I use a combination of flows and mnemonics. But I think I'd be doing a PPL a disservice training him that way. I believe that a single engine Cessna may be saffely flown without using a printed checklist, but I don't think that belief is shared by the people who will be issuing the certificate.
Does the ops manual of the aircraft have a printed checklist as a required part to be on board?
What happens if you forget/lose your checklist?
I never even saw a printed checklist for my first couple of dozen aircraft types until I got to jets!
Even on heavy jets you follow a flow by memory and only confirm with a checklist.
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All the ones I've seen do. I've always assumed that it was a required element of a POH.
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Perhaps I wasn't clear. Yes I agree that a single engine airplane can be safely operated using nenomics and flows. No, I don't think that the FAA would agree that will fill the requirement for "completing a checklist". Perhaps CASA has a broader view on that. Like I said, I don't know about that. If a CASA inspector would that sufficient on a checkride, I've no issue.
All the ones I've seen do. I've always assumed that it was a required element of a POH.
All the ones I've seen do. I've always assumed that it was a required element of a POH.
Are you saying that a C172/Baron etc that does not have a written checklist on board is now grounded?
I would love to see that somewhere in writing!
I can say that I completed CPL and MECIR (well, it’s ancestor anyway) tests without written checklists, however that was a long time ago.
Your C172 or Baron would definitely be grounded.
The law requires you to carry the flight manual on board, I am pretty sure all flight manuals contain said checklists.
I am pretty sure all flight manuals contain said checklists.
At the risk of picking a few nits, the original C-172/180/182 certification predates mandatory AFM/POH.
I would also make the comment that many GA aircraft manufacturer check lists are terrible, they are NOT really check lists at all, they are procedures lists, leaving you between a rock and a hard place "legally".
For a B767/744, the total normal operations checklists from brakes off the brakes on is a short list on the control wheel boss, why does it run to page after page for many GA aircraft.
Tootle pip!!
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Of course the last time I flew one the old CAA flight manuals were in force.
I wonder how I passed all those tests and Instructor/Instrument renewals without ever using a printed checklist?
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Here's a scan of a 1967 Cessna 172 manual The checklist begins on the 4th page of the .pdf (Page 1-1).
Here's a scan of a 1982 Cessna 172P "information manual" The 172P was certificated in the era after the serialized aircraft manual was required, but still in the era when a new model had CAR 3, (the predecessor regulations to Part 23) as a certification basis. This is called an "information manual" because it is not *the* aircraft flight manual. this would be the manual that a flight school would give (for a price, of course) to a student that he would take home to study. A note on the third page of the .pdf explains this status and how the "information manual" does not replace the "Official Pilot's Operating Handbook, and FAA Approved Flight Manual" The Emergency Checklists begin on pg 35, and the normal operating checklists begin on page 55.
Here's an "Information manual" for a 2007 172R. The 172R, unlike the 172-172Q, was entirely certificated under the current Part 23 Airworthiness Standards. (vice the predecessor CAR-3 regs) It contains a similar note in the front that the "information manual" when printed contains the same information as the official POH and Approved Flight Manual, but because it is does not get updated, cannot be considered a replacement for the manual assigned to the specific aircraft serial number. Emergency and Normal Checklists are found beginning on pg 72 and 112, respectively.
Lest you be tempted to think that this is just a Cessna phenomenon here's a link to a manual for a 1975-1977 Citabria Checklists are in the Emergency procedures section, normal procedures section, and also printed on the back cover for convenience.
I also have a manual for a 1965 Helio Courier. It contains checklists. I'd have to host the file somewhere in order to provide a link, and I'm far too lazy for that, so you're just gonna have to trust me on that one.
Since you earlier mentioned Barons, here's a link to the "Normal Procedures Section of the POH for the G58 Baron. Yep, you guessed it ... checklists.
Can you provide a link to the manufacturer's manual for a general aviation aircraft with a standard airworthiness certificate manufactured in the last 60 years which *doesn't* contain checklists?
Last edited by A Squared; 24th Apr 2018 at 08:11.
I’ve never used any of the checklists in any of the POHs/Flight Manuals in any of the aircraft I’ve flown, with one exception: emergency undercarriage extension.
Why do you think instructors invented all those TMFISCHs and BUMFHHs and PUFFs and CFMMs etc?
Why do you think instructors invented all those TMFISCHs and BUMFHHs and PUFFs and CFMMs etc?
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The question I was answering was "Are there checklists in aircraft manuals?" not : "Are the checklists found in aircraft manuals good checklists in a convenient location?"
Roger. My mistake.
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There were two seperate ops manuals, the “official” dca, dot, caa, casa (have I missed any?) one and the manufacturers manual, full of interesting stuff (and perhaps some crap checklists)
The fact is though that nobody in the 70s/early 80s took any notice of them! (They did contain good stuff like how to drop the gear as Leadsled said!)
Regarding my own experience, hmm : various singles, travelair, pa23, pa32, baron, c310, pa31, Beagle206!
B747,767,737,a330.
Yep, used a few checklists over the years, just not in 172s, or most of the twins! (I think the navajo had a rolling thing on the control column.)
The original argument was more “do you NEED to use printed checklists” in bugsmashers during a checkflight?my answer would still be no.
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Back to the question at hand; By your own admission, you haven't been involved in General Aviation or flight instruction for about third of a century. Are you sure that "no" is still the correct answer? Are you really sure? As I said earlier, I don't have a whole lot of insight into the way things are in GA in Oz, other than what I read here, but I'm fairly sure that a check-ride with the FAA that didn't involve printed checklists would be short and unsuccessful. I'd be interested to hear what the story is in Oz from someone who's been involved in GA flight instruction in this millennium.
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Well, if you're going to argue that the checklists that Cessna has in their manuals, labeled "checklist", aren't actually checklists, then you'd probably better take that argument to Cessna. Again, I wasn't arguing that they were good checklists, just that they are there.
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True, but you kind of derailed that discussion by making some, ummm, questionable statements about Checklists not being in manuals, and manuals not being required.
Back to the question at hand; By your own admission, you haven't been involved in General Aviation or flight instruction for about third of a century. Are you sure that "no" is still the correct answer? Are you really sure? As I said earlier, I don't have a whole lot of insight into the way things are in GA in Oz, other than what I read here, but I'm fairly sure that a check-ride with the FAA that didn't involve printed checklists would be short and unsuccessful. I'd be interested to hear what the story is in Oz from someone who's been involved in GA flight instruction in this millennium.
Back to the question at hand; By your own admission, you haven't been involved in General Aviation or flight instruction for about third of a century. Are you sure that "no" is still the correct answer? Are you really sure? As I said earlier, I don't have a whole lot of insight into the way things are in GA in Oz, other than what I read here, but I'm fairly sure that a check-ride with the FAA that didn't involve printed checklists would be short and unsuccessful. I'd be interested to hear what the story is in Oz from someone who's been involved in GA flight instruction in this millennium.
I did my FAA checkflight last year though!
Not a checklist in sight!
