Lilydale crash
The question to be asked is not whether his radio procedures were in accordance with the rules, but rather: What possessed him to fly into Lilydale? Was he visiting the Hanging Gardens of Lilydale? The Pyramids of Lilydale? The Grand Lilydale Canyon?
Why Lilydale?
Why Lilydale?
The bill turned up a few days later. Three landings at $60 a go and a $20 parking fee whilst we had some light afternoon refreshment at the little cafe’ next to Coles. Two words spring to mind. The first one is ‘Rip’ and the second one is ‘off’.
I don’t mind paying to use the facility, but being slugged $200 to use Essendon over a couple of of hours on a sunny Saturday afternoon is a tad over the top. The parking fee by the way goes to $40 next year, $60 the year after and $80 in 2021. Absolutely outrageous.
The days of places like Essendon being seen as an asset to be used and for the good of the aviation community and the community at large, are well and truly over. One of the many reasons why GA is buggered in this country. Sorry ‘bout the thread drift.
Good point, GB.
These days the warm inner glow on return from a great trip is usually chilled by the AVDATA bills that subsequently dribble in. Essendon is a particularly expensive stop-over.
Back to the thread...
These days the warm inner glow on return from a great trip is usually chilled by the AVDATA bills that subsequently dribble in. Essendon is a particularly expensive stop-over.
Back to the thread...
Last edited by Lead Balloon; 26th Mar 2018 at 20:28.
Aw c'mon LB, you've really overstepped the mark here! 
Why not Lilydale? You've got the whole Yarra Valley at your feet, great scenery, great wines, great food - top it off with a night in one of our luxury accommodations.
Plus a great crowd of friendly aviators to swap yarns with!
And where else can you perfect your braking technique on wet slippery grass?
Why not Lilydale? You've got the whole Yarra Valley at your feet, great scenery, great wines, great food - top it off with a night in one of our luxury accommodations.
Plus a great crowd of friendly aviators to swap yarns with!
And where else can you perfect your braking technique on wet slippery grass?
The assessment of a pilots ability seems to be based on the quality of their radio calls and the number of bars on their epaulets. The fact a pilot can’t land in a crosswind, is petrified of stalls, taxies against the brakes, starts their aircraft 2m from hangar doors with the slipstream filling the hangar with dust and causing the aircraft in the hangar to collide is old fashioned stuff. Their multiple EFBs will protect them!
Well said!!
As I have often said, once we "learnt to fly", now you "learn to comply", with all that stick and rudder stuff being old hat, compared to being word perfect on the dozens (is dozens compliant in a metric age) of pages of "radio procedures" beyond anything required by most other countries and/or ICAO.
Tootle pip!!
PS: At least one thing we achieved, years ago, against resistance from CAA/CASA/whichever at the time and large slabs of the local aviation community, particularly one pilot union, was getting rid of "words" that had a completely different meaning in Australia to the rest of the world, ie: Theoretically adopted ICAO as the standard.
For example, we amended the AIP so "left" had the meaning "left" as in left and right, as opposed to left meaning leaving an altitude or flight level.
But it took a real accident and a string of really serious near-hits and the resultant inquiries to do it!!
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It's a very pretty place LB.
Kaz
I’ll have to fly in and hang around a while. Both of my flights in and out have only been in transit.
Will do my best not to end up in a drain off the end...
Will do my best not to end up in a drain off the end...
LIL is a great place to fly, I learnt to fly there. Haven’t been there for years however I have very fond memories of the airfield.
Cessna 340 into there when it’s wet would be something I certainly wouldn’t consider. If he wanted to avoid the landing fees at EN or MB a better alternative would have been Melton, the main strip there is long enough to take a 340 and it’s gravel.
Cessna 340 into there when it’s wet would be something I certainly wouldn’t consider. If he wanted to avoid the landing fees at EN or MB a better alternative would have been Melton, the main strip there is long enough to take a 340 and it’s gravel.
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Lilydale parallel strips normally 850 and 1350 metres but currently both 850 due taxiway works.
Cessna 340 1850 feet over 50' obstacle and there is nought but a fence to concern an arrival from the north. So it's certainly doable, even wet, if approached with care., I would suggest?
But I'm just an AUSTER pilot and 850 metres is a l-o-n-g way to me.
Kaz
Cessna 340 1850 feet over 50' obstacle and there is nought but a fence to concern an arrival from the north. So it's certainly doable, even wet, if approached with care., I would suggest?
But I'm just an AUSTER pilot and 850 metres is a l-o-n-g way to me.
Kaz
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For example, we amended the AIP so "left" had the meaning "left" as in left and right, as opposed to left meaning leaving an altitude or flight level.
But it took a real accident and a string of really serious near-hits and the resultant inquiries to do it!!
But it took a real accident and a string of really serious near-hits and the resultant inquiries to do it!!
C'mon Sheppey, it is sooo easy to confuse "Left Heading 290" with "Left Flight Level 290". Or so Leddie says. But, I suppose, throw in some slack %^& drawling, you might get there...
I think somebody has already asked him for the details of "a real accident and a string of really serious near-hits" but none were forthcoming. Maybe you'll have more success.
I think somebody has already asked him for the details of "a real accident and a string of really serious near-hits" but none were forthcoming. Maybe you'll have more success.
Kaz, I don’t fly biggish airplanes like that either however I used to be a flight performance engineer so I wonder about a few things. Is that 1850 ft from the marketing department or the POH? I guess it is for a dry, sealed runway not a wet, grass strip. Did the certification standard require performance to be achievable by an average pilot or was it from an earlier version of the design regs when the test pilot did his best?
C'mon Sheppey, it is sooo easy to confuse "Left Heading 290" with "Left Flight Level 290". Or so Leddie says. But, I suppose, throw in some slack %^& drawling, you might get there...
I think somebody has already asked him for the details of "a real accident and a string of really serious near-hits" but none were forthcoming. Maybe you'll have more success.
I think somebody has already asked him for the details of "a real accident and a string of really serious near-hits" but none were forthcoming. Maybe you'll have more success.
Oh dear! Another one who doesn't understand the subtleties of English and the appalling ways miscommunication occurs.
We learned the hard way in the defence forces , it's 'say again" not 'repeat" which is a fire direction term meaning do what you just did again.
Its "affirmative" and "negative" and so on for good reasons. The accident reports are full of "I thought he said"......
I have a pet peeve with the Missus when I ask "clear left?" on the road and her response is "right"!
But then again I have also been taken to task by ex girlfriends "why do you keep repeating what I just told you?" when I paraphrase what she said and feed it back to confirm - a habit I was taught by Neville Foote back in the Ansett days.
I always say ‘out of’ an altitude rather than ‘left’ or ‘leaving’. Not ambiguous, and it is also useful as an ego-feeding ‘debriefing point’ for the STC on my annual line check.
Its "affirmative" and "negative" and so on for good reasons. The accident reports are full of "I thought he said"......
In the military it is "a-firm" so there's no confusion when they hear the "ative"
Originally Posted by Sunfish
Oh dear! Another one who doesn't understand the subtleties of English and the appalling ways miscommunication occurs.
Folks,
You will have to forgive Bloggs, apparently he still does not accept Australia (in principle, at least) adopting ICAO radio phraseology and procedures.
Fortunately, at the time, the Qantas group, Ansett and subsidiaries and AIPA, along with AOPA and all the members of ASAC did agree.
Leaving AFAP all on its lonesome, the changes went ahead.
If anybody wants to look up the incidents at the time, shouldn't be too hard.
One that does spring to mind was the executive jet that almost t-boned a Continental DC-10 off the coast of NSW, look up the BASI records --- all because of different meanings of "cruise" --- that one was the final catalyst, and it was bleeding close.
I have already mentioned the TAA B727 that hit the DC-8 in Sydney.
Sunfish, spot on!!
Tootle pip!
You will have to forgive Bloggs, apparently he still does not accept Australia (in principle, at least) adopting ICAO radio phraseology and procedures.
Fortunately, at the time, the Qantas group, Ansett and subsidiaries and AIPA, along with AOPA and all the members of ASAC did agree.
Leaving AFAP all on its lonesome, the changes went ahead.
If anybody wants to look up the incidents at the time, shouldn't be too hard.
One that does spring to mind was the executive jet that almost t-boned a Continental DC-10 off the coast of NSW, look up the BASI records --- all because of different meanings of "cruise" --- that one was the final catalyst, and it was bleeding close.
I have already mentioned the TAA B727 that hit the DC-8 in Sydney.
Sunfish, spot on!!
Tootle pip!
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Kaz, I don’t fly biggish airplanes like that either however I used to be a flight performance engineer so I wonder about a few things. Is that 1850 ft from the marketing department or the POH? I guess it is for a dry, sealed runway not a wet, grass strip. Did the certification standard require performance to be achievable by an average pilot or was it from an earlier version of the design regs when the test pilot did his best?
I did note someone else's comment that there had been a recent local excursion and I know of others so there you go...it happens.
I think Lilydale is the nicest airfield in the Melbourne basin but I'm biased towards grass strips.
Kaz