On acquiring an aircraft for my own PPL training and later use
From the other side, I used to have a few privately owned aircraft on line. I'll be tactful here and say the the biggest problem was the "unrealistic expectations" of the owners, no matter what was written into the contract. Very few of them understood the realities of owning an aircraft and some even tried to undercut me by doing sly deals on the side with my hirers. So apart from the opportunity cost mentioned above, don't expect every flying school that has its own fleet to want a privately owned one on line.
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Okihara, what is your objective in this exercise?
Are you -
trying to save money during training?
trying to save money flying after you are licenced?
looking for the enjoyment of aircraft ownership?
looking for the flexibility of aircraft ownership v renting?
looking at an aircraft as an investment?
The best path for you will depend on how clear you are about what you want to achieve.
Are you -
trying to save money during training?
trying to save money flying after you are licenced?
looking for the enjoyment of aircraft ownership?
looking for the flexibility of aircraft ownership v renting?
looking at an aircraft as an investment?
The best path for you will depend on how clear you are about what you want to achieve.
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@LeadSled
Will do. It seems that flight time is also transferable so I might just get my PPL and then fly ROAz if that's where the fun is these days.
Over the last few days I've been knocking on a few doors and stalking a few people to get answers and estimates. I am actually a little less keen to buy to be honest.
It seems that budgeting for variable costs of engine overhaul, and for the 50 and 100 hourly maintenances will most probably at best equate any earnings made from the leaseback. Numbers I obtained are the following (corrections welcome):
Insurance: 5% of buy price per annum
Engine overhaul (2000 hours): A$ 45,000
50 hourly: A$ 3,000 and north of that if any significant repair is needed
100 hourly but at least once every 12 months: A$ 6,000 (not entirely sure if that can be done together with the 50 hourly. If you fly, say, 100 hours/year, do you still need another inspection?)
Parking: A$ 2,500 to A$ 3,500 yearly at an expensive airport like Moorabbin
Fuel: A$ 60/hour, at an approx. AVGAS price of A$ 2/L and 30 L/h consumption.
Current dual rates on a Warrior are in the A$ 360 - A$ 400 range, of which around A$ 100 goes to the instructor. The question now is whether the rest should first cover the costs with any potential profit to be split between the school and the owner, or if the school takes a cut first and leaves all costs at the owner's sole expense. I'll assume the worst case which is the former with a ratio of 85% (owner) – 15% (school). Obviously I also expect some fine printed CASA fees to ice that cake.
Assuming some flight time numbers, eg. 100 yearly of own flight time and perhaps some 5-6 hours weekly for the school, this adds up to roughly 350-400 hours yearly.
Additionally, let's take a Cessna 172 RG selling at A$ 90,000.
If you do the maths, in the scenario where all costs are the owner's expense the running costs for one year would be of A$ 87,500, and earnings from the school would amount to A$ 70,125 which results in a loss of A$ 16,875.
In the second case, the loss would be of only A$ 4,500, with no profit for the school (you may also argue, at no expense/investment either).
In conclusion, assuming that these figures are somewhat realistic, I'd expect a real life agreement to fall somewhere in the middle, that is, perhaps between breaking even and a loss of A$ 20,000.
Now that's including 100 hours of flight time. Therefore we're talking about a rate of up to A$ 200/hour for owning instead of A$ 300 for renting.
Any thoughts?
* I should add, I'm very grateful for the wealth of experience that all the users bring to that forum and for the interest taken in this thread.
I don't recall if you mentioned where you are, geographically, but go have a look at the nearest RAOz schools, sadly these days for GA, they are often the more active, vibrant and generally just fun places to be, like aero clubs of the "good old days".
A final piece of advice, as you are starting to sound like you have already subconsciously made up your mind to buy an aircraft, re-read all the advice as to why you shouldn't, and if you do, keep the aircraft for your own use, forget the blandishments about how you can defray/minimise costs by hiring to a club or school.
It seems that budgeting for variable costs of engine overhaul, and for the 50 and 100 hourly maintenances will most probably at best equate any earnings made from the leaseback. Numbers I obtained are the following (corrections welcome):
Insurance: 5% of buy price per annum
Engine overhaul (2000 hours): A$ 45,000
50 hourly: A$ 3,000 and north of that if any significant repair is needed
100 hourly but at least once every 12 months: A$ 6,000 (not entirely sure if that can be done together with the 50 hourly. If you fly, say, 100 hours/year, do you still need another inspection?)
Parking: A$ 2,500 to A$ 3,500 yearly at an expensive airport like Moorabbin
Fuel: A$ 60/hour, at an approx. AVGAS price of A$ 2/L and 30 L/h consumption.
Current dual rates on a Warrior are in the A$ 360 - A$ 400 range, of which around A$ 100 goes to the instructor. The question now is whether the rest should first cover the costs with any potential profit to be split between the school and the owner, or if the school takes a cut first and leaves all costs at the owner's sole expense. I'll assume the worst case which is the former with a ratio of 85% (owner) – 15% (school). Obviously I also expect some fine printed CASA fees to ice that cake.
Assuming some flight time numbers, eg. 100 yearly of own flight time and perhaps some 5-6 hours weekly for the school, this adds up to roughly 350-400 hours yearly.
Additionally, let's take a Cessna 172 RG selling at A$ 90,000.
If you do the maths, in the scenario where all costs are the owner's expense the running costs for one year would be of A$ 87,500, and earnings from the school would amount to A$ 70,125 which results in a loss of A$ 16,875.
In the second case, the loss would be of only A$ 4,500, with no profit for the school (you may also argue, at no expense/investment either).
In conclusion, assuming that these figures are somewhat realistic, I'd expect a real life agreement to fall somewhere in the middle, that is, perhaps between breaking even and a loss of A$ 20,000.
Now that's including 100 hours of flight time. Therefore we're talking about a rate of up to A$ 200/hour for owning instead of A$ 300 for renting.
Any thoughts?
* I should add, I'm very grateful for the wealth of experience that all the users bring to that forum and for the interest taken in this thread.
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I forgot to account for depreciation and to assume a duration. It might be reasonable to resell the aircraft for A$ 75,000 after two/three years which adds another A$ 15,000/2 or /3 to the overall yearly expenses.
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From the other side, I used to have a few privately owned aircraft on line. I'll be tactful here and say the the biggest problem was the "unrealistic expectations" of the owners, no matter what was written into the contract. Very few of them understood the realities of owning an aircraft and some even tried to undercut me by doing sly deals on the side with my hirers. So apart from the opportunity cost mentioned above, don't expect every flying school that has its own fleet to want a privately owned one on line.
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Just to explicit things a little, I made small spreadsheet where the school FT is run from 0 to a few hundred hours. Unfortunately I cannot attach it because I'm still a new user.
In short, it shows that the flight time cost of a Warrior is A$ 202/h. That includes: 2000 hour engine overhaul (A$ 45k or A$ 22.5/h), 100 hourly (A$ 6k, or A$ 60/h) and 50 hourly (A$ 3k, or A$ 60/h) maintenances, and fuel at 30 L/h.
The fixed costs are: insurance at A$ 4,500 and airport parking at A$ 1,500.
It yields that the breakeven point would be around 500 hours of rental time, or roughly 10 hours per week, assuming two weeks off for maintenance.
Out of a solo rate of A$ 275, A$ 20 go back to the school for providing the opportunity. The remaining A$ 255 cover all costs, fixed and variable ones.
Own Ft is set at 100 and accounted for in the total costs.
With 10 hours of rental per week, going into this deal could potentially yield 100 hours of own flight time.
Any thoughts?
In short, it shows that the flight time cost of a Warrior is A$ 202/h. That includes: 2000 hour engine overhaul (A$ 45k or A$ 22.5/h), 100 hourly (A$ 6k, or A$ 60/h) and 50 hourly (A$ 3k, or A$ 60/h) maintenances, and fuel at 30 L/h.
The fixed costs are: insurance at A$ 4,500 and airport parking at A$ 1,500.
It yields that the breakeven point would be around 500 hours of rental time, or roughly 10 hours per week, assuming two weeks off for maintenance.
Out of a solo rate of A$ 275, A$ 20 go back to the school for providing the opportunity. The remaining A$ 255 cover all costs, fixed and variable ones.
Own Ft is set at 100 and accounted for in the total costs.
With 10 hours of rental per week, going into this deal could potentially yield 100 hours of own flight time.
Any thoughts?
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The 100 hourly costs for a Rotax powered Sling or Foxbat for example will be significantly less than you've quoted for the Warrior and the engine would be closer to $26k and you'd get around $6k for your used one. 100 hourlies would be closer to $1,000-$1,500 (especially if a new aircraft) but... the hire rates are less. 3.5-4 seats in a Warrior but they will rarely be filled in a training environment.
Your insurance estimate is a tad low too and the parking fee may be a tad low too although I'm a little out of touch with Moorabbin parking prices. If you leave it parked outside, you're going to need a paint job after 8-12 years? perhaps and that will cost $15-30k? but some would say cheaper than a hangar, but flying school aircraft aren't usually hangared, is too expensive and annoying to open the doors and drag out so it's left sitting in the high-sun all day anyway.
Perhaps go and visit one of the maintenance shops that service the Foxbats and Slings at YMMB and ask them how much for a service. If you can't find one, try Westernport aircraft maintenance at Tyabb as I know they do Foxbats and Bristells for Soar occasionally. Rotaxes should have 25 hourly oil changes if running on Avgas. I'm not sure what fuel Soar et al use.
You haven't mentioned what YOU want out of the aircraft other than as a business concern.
- How fast do you want to go?
- Where do you want to fly to?
- What type of runways will you be landing on?
- What fuel do they have there?
- How many passengers will you carry?
- Do you want to fly at night, on instruments or do any aerobatics?
Raaus versus GA? Moorabbin is full of sausage factories with no decent social atmosphere except maybe at Royal Vic Aero Club. You'll get the exact same social experience at Moorabbin regardless of your aircraft type or registration.
At the smaller airfields out of town, there are healthy social clubs of both raaus and GA so I wouldn't let that be a deciding factor.
Someone posted on here a few months back saying that they get $80 an hour for their older but in good nick 182 and he's paying for everything (except fuel of course).
Your insurance estimate is a tad low too and the parking fee may be a tad low too although I'm a little out of touch with Moorabbin parking prices. If you leave it parked outside, you're going to need a paint job after 8-12 years? perhaps and that will cost $15-30k? but some would say cheaper than a hangar, but flying school aircraft aren't usually hangared, is too expensive and annoying to open the doors and drag out so it's left sitting in the high-sun all day anyway.
Perhaps go and visit one of the maintenance shops that service the Foxbats and Slings at YMMB and ask them how much for a service. If you can't find one, try Westernport aircraft maintenance at Tyabb as I know they do Foxbats and Bristells for Soar occasionally. Rotaxes should have 25 hourly oil changes if running on Avgas. I'm not sure what fuel Soar et al use.
You haven't mentioned what YOU want out of the aircraft other than as a business concern.
- How fast do you want to go?
- Where do you want to fly to?
- What type of runways will you be landing on?
- What fuel do they have there?
- How many passengers will you carry?
- Do you want to fly at night, on instruments or do any aerobatics?
Raaus versus GA? Moorabbin is full of sausage factories with no decent social atmosphere except maybe at Royal Vic Aero Club. You'll get the exact same social experience at Moorabbin regardless of your aircraft type or registration.
At the smaller airfields out of town, there are healthy social clubs of both raaus and GA so I wouldn't let that be a deciding factor.
Someone posted on here a few months back saying that they get $80 an hour for their older but in good nick 182 and he's paying for everything (except fuel of course).
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[...] the [Rotax] engine would be closer to $26k and you'd get around $6k for your used one
Regarding hire rates: schools always quote SOLO and DUAL rates. It my understanding that dual means with an instructor, and solo is without one. What are you implying with
the hire rates are less. 3.5-4 seats in a Warrior but they will rarely be filled in a training environment.
Perhaps go and visit one of the maintenance shops that service the Foxbats and Slings at YMMB and ask them how much for a service. If you can't find one, try Westernport aircraft maintenance at Tyabb as I know they do Foxbats and Bristells for Soar occasionally. Rotaxes should have 25 hourly oil changes if running on Avgas. I'm not sure what fuel Soar et al use.
Regarding what I'd like to get from the aircraft, I'd say primarily having a good, reasonably all-rounder aircraft to build flight time. I'd like to take it on some cross-country flights, possibly flying 2-3 hours a day over a ten day period to discover it from above (reminder: I'm not from Aus). I don't mean to sound like a whippersnapper but something like taking my girlfriend on a journey from Melbourne to Darwin with as many stops as required. My early guess is that this includes a mix of sealed, grass and dirt runways. A two-seater with a bit of luggage room will amply do at this stage. A fast plane is not entirely important at this stage. Night flying: yes, as I understand that this is common rating to do with the PPL. As for instruments and aerobatics, the answer is yes but not necessarily. I'm still not very familiar with the obvious choice of ratings but my feeling tells me that a CSU might be a priority.
I talked to a nice bloke who almost managed to win me over for a Foxbat, arguing that flying this is endless fun. They are popular with a few schools around too would flying for a few days in this be a little uncomfortable? It seems that newer UL aircraft are most cost-effective than Warriors and 172s.
As for RA-Aus: Very tempted to give it a shot but living in Melbourne, I haven't found any option other than Tyabb, Tooradin, Lilydale or Bacchus Marsh, all of which are quite a drive from CBD.
