On acquiring an aircraft for my own PPL training and later use
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On acquiring an aircraft for my own PPL training and later use
I know that this matter has already been discussed in other threads but the aircraft under consideration were almost exclusively Warriors or 172s which are 40 year old designs and heavy on fuel consumption.
Instead, I am considering light sport aircraft such as a Blackshape Prime or a Sling 2, for instance. I'd prefer a Blackshape Prime fitted with a CSU.As I am still half-way towards obtaining my PPL here in Australia, my question would be the following one: would it financially and technically (from a skill-set building perspective) make sense to acquire such an aircraft and lease it back to a school to do my training?
I am in a lucky position to have enough funds to acquire one and wouldn't need any loan for this. My reasoning is that giving money away at the expensive dual rate makes little sense if you can afford to have your own plane, lease it to a school and do your own training and flying in it.
One of the schools at my airport has a number of Sling 2 aircraft and they're quite popular with students. Most Warriors and 172s are now in their 3rd or 4th decade and seem to have run their course. Financially, the dual hourly rate on a Piper or 172 is in the A$360-400 range, which includes roughly A$100 for the instructor whereas dual rate on a Sling 2 is just about A$ 290 which makes it much more attractive to students and at seemingly no extra expense to the school.
Therefore, my assumption is that both schools and students would stand to benefit from this opportunity, making a leaseback idea viable.Would it therefore be a good idea to buy a sport light aircraft such as those mentioned and lease it back to the school? Or am I missing anything that still makes learning in Warriors and 172s relevant?
Thanks for your inputs.
Instead, I am considering light sport aircraft such as a Blackshape Prime or a Sling 2, for instance. I'd prefer a Blackshape Prime fitted with a CSU.As I am still half-way towards obtaining my PPL here in Australia, my question would be the following one: would it financially and technically (from a skill-set building perspective) make sense to acquire such an aircraft and lease it back to a school to do my training?
I am in a lucky position to have enough funds to acquire one and wouldn't need any loan for this. My reasoning is that giving money away at the expensive dual rate makes little sense if you can afford to have your own plane, lease it to a school and do your own training and flying in it.
One of the schools at my airport has a number of Sling 2 aircraft and they're quite popular with students. Most Warriors and 172s are now in their 3rd or 4th decade and seem to have run their course. Financially, the dual hourly rate on a Piper or 172 is in the A$360-400 range, which includes roughly A$100 for the instructor whereas dual rate on a Sling 2 is just about A$ 290 which makes it much more attractive to students and at seemingly no extra expense to the school.
Therefore, my assumption is that both schools and students would stand to benefit from this opportunity, making a leaseback idea viable.Would it therefore be a good idea to buy a sport light aircraft such as those mentioned and lease it back to the school? Or am I missing anything that still makes learning in Warriors and 172s relevant?
Thanks for your inputs.
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Probably worth just talking to the school about it; if you buy the Sling you'll have to talk to them anyway in order to set up the lease. If it was actually capable of earning more profit than the Cessna/Piper options and paying back the initial outlay, they probably would have bought one already - so why haven't they?
The obvious limitations of the Sling 2 are that it's only a 2-seater (can't take a couple of mates on a flight) and it's pretty light (the heavier Warriors and 172s are likely to give you better experience for moving on to larger commercial aircraft, if that's where you want to go). Rather than comparing it to a Warrior or 172, a Cessna 152 might be a more appropriate alternative.
Apart from that, I've been told very firmly "do not do training in your own plane, and don't let anyone else do training in your own plane". Too much risk of breaking something, and insurance premiums reflect that.
The obvious limitations of the Sling 2 are that it's only a 2-seater (can't take a couple of mates on a flight) and it's pretty light (the heavier Warriors and 172s are likely to give you better experience for moving on to larger commercial aircraft, if that's where you want to go). Rather than comparing it to a Warrior or 172, a Cessna 152 might be a more appropriate alternative.
Apart from that, I've been told very firmly "do not do training in your own plane, and don't let anyone else do training in your own plane". Too much risk of breaking something, and insurance premiums reflect that.
Research the costs of owning a aircraft, talk to some current owners find out the yearly expenses. It’s the unscheduled and unexpected maintenance that usually sends a lot of flying schools and sole owners to the wall. I know of one flying school that had to sell its Cessna because they didn’t plan for a expensive breakdown and couldn’t afford it.
Okihara,
Go start your training somewhere (not at a capital city secondary airport) and gets some experience, some feel, from the inside. With a bit of time under your belt your views on suitable aircraft will also probably change.
I also suggest you look at staring with RAOz rather than the GA stream, it is easy enough to convert later.
Keep it simple.
Tootle pip!!
Go start your training somewhere (not at a capital city secondary airport) and gets some experience, some feel, from the inside. With a bit of time under your belt your views on suitable aircraft will also probably change.
I also suggest you look at staring with RAOz rather than the GA stream, it is easy enough to convert later.
Keep it simple.
Tootle pip!!
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There are PLENTY of people out there now doing exactly what you are proposing, it's how many flying schools survive as they can't afford their own aircraft.
I would broaden your choice of aircraft though. I'm personally not excited about the Sling after I saw that 4 seater literally crushed in a landing accident (there's a thread on it here), they were lucky to survive
and the pilot was badly injured. As for the Black Shape Prime, I haven't heard of any being sold yet and $260k+ for a 130? knot tandem aircraft? Certainly tandem aren't brilliant for an-initio training so your aircraft might not get much use except for licenced pilots and at the huge capital outlay that it is, the hire rate will suffer accordingly.
Flying schools need workhorses, not modern showpieces. The 40 year old Cessnas are moderately bullet-proof and the costs are very well known. They burn more fuel but you can buy a decent 182 for well under $100k these days.
Workhorses in raaus are Jabiru's, Foxbats and other entry-level aircraft. The high-end imports like some Tecnams and the exotic European composites are great for private owners to hang onto and use privately.
One euro composite worth looking at is the Pipistrel Alpha trainer.... much the same airframe as the electric model that's been causing a lot of hype about lately. They have built this aircraft to be an affordable trainer and there are examples already of them operating successfully in Australian flying schools.
Perhaps also look at Soar, the flying school with some 30-40 aircraft in Moorabbin and Bankstown - they operate pretty much exclusively Foxbats and Bristells.
I would broaden your choice of aircraft though. I'm personally not excited about the Sling after I saw that 4 seater literally crushed in a landing accident (there's a thread on it here), they were lucky to survive
and the pilot was badly injured. As for the Black Shape Prime, I haven't heard of any being sold yet and $260k+ for a 130? knot tandem aircraft? Certainly tandem aren't brilliant for an-initio training so your aircraft might not get much use except for licenced pilots and at the huge capital outlay that it is, the hire rate will suffer accordingly.
Flying schools need workhorses, not modern showpieces. The 40 year old Cessnas are moderately bullet-proof and the costs are very well known. They burn more fuel but you can buy a decent 182 for well under $100k these days.
Workhorses in raaus are Jabiru's, Foxbats and other entry-level aircraft. The high-end imports like some Tecnams and the exotic European composites are great for private owners to hang onto and use privately.
One euro composite worth looking at is the Pipistrel Alpha trainer.... much the same airframe as the electric model that's been causing a lot of hype about lately. They have built this aircraft to be an affordable trainer and there are examples already of them operating successfully in Australian flying schools.
Perhaps also look at Soar, the flying school with some 30-40 aircraft in Moorabbin and Bankstown - they operate pretty much exclusively Foxbats and Bristells.
Last edited by StickWithTheTruth; 11th Mar 2018 at 07:13.
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Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time for your replies.
@StickWithTheTruth: It was also my assumption that schools would be selling their old aircraft at residual value and renew their fleet if they could afford it. I had a look at the Pipistrel Alpha Electro which claims to run minimal maintenance costs and is still a good aircraft to learn on. I understand the workhorses argument and that's precisely where I see the opportunity. Also, would you happen to have any references or hard facts when you say that
they are plenty of people doing just [what I intend to do] ?As I basically moved to Australia for a couple of years, I have only been made aware of the parallel RA-Aus track (vs. GA) pretty late in the game. Anyaway heading back to Europe eventually, a PPL will obviously be more transferable. It is my understanding that limitations to the RA-Aus certificate are, among others, weights of up to 600 kg which does include Foxbats, Bristell, Blackshape prime and others. But what's with the registration of those aircraft? Are RA-Aus planes also VH- or are they on a separate registration schema? Can you use those aircraft interchangeably, eg. can I use a Blackshape prime for GA or is it limited to RA-Aus?
@StickWithTheTruth: It was also my assumption that schools would be selling their old aircraft at residual value and renew their fleet if they could afford it. I had a look at the Pipistrel Alpha Electro which claims to run minimal maintenance costs and is still a good aircraft to learn on. I understand the workhorses argument and that's precisely where I see the opportunity. Also, would you happen to have any references or hard facts when you say that
they are plenty of people doing just [what I intend to do] ?
There is an opportunity cost for the school if their staff are flying a non school asset while theirs are sitting on the ground. Pretty slim margins on cross-hire, only suitable if the school has no assets of its own which is pretty sad and risky.
Those PA28s and C172s are still around for a reason, they have stood the test of time and the rigours of flying training while many plastic fantastics have come and gone and often taken the flying school down with them.
Those PA28s and C172s are still around for a reason, they have stood the test of time and the rigours of flying training while many plastic fantastics have come and gone and often taken the flying school down with them.
I’d suggest you consider the following:
- your motivation for buying your own aircraft. If it’s to save money, you simply won’t.
- If it’s to gain as much experience on the aircraft before setting off on your own, that’s a good reason.
- I don’t agree with the whole go and break someone else’s machine story. The only rider I’d put on that being - if it’s brand new don’t do any training in it for the first 10-20 engine hours. Get the rings bedded in before you start using low power settings or else you’ll own an oil burner.
- if you think you’re going to make money leasing it to a Flying school, you’d want to be very careful. Aircraft get trashed, owners don’t get paid and these deals often finish badly.
- do you really want to fly just the one type for several years to come? Maybe get your licence, hire a few different types then decide.
- if you just want to own an aeroplane and can afford it, do it. Don’t try to justify it, just go and buy one.
- your motivation for buying your own aircraft. If it’s to save money, you simply won’t.
- If it’s to gain as much experience on the aircraft before setting off on your own, that’s a good reason.
- I don’t agree with the whole go and break someone else’s machine story. The only rider I’d put on that being - if it’s brand new don’t do any training in it for the first 10-20 engine hours. Get the rings bedded in before you start using low power settings or else you’ll own an oil burner.
- if you think you’re going to make money leasing it to a Flying school, you’d want to be very careful. Aircraft get trashed, owners don’t get paid and these deals often finish badly.
- do you really want to fly just the one type for several years to come? Maybe get your licence, hire a few different types then decide.
- if you just want to own an aeroplane and can afford it, do it. Don’t try to justify it, just go and buy one.
Okihara,
Have a look at the Recreational Aviation Australia web site, but in simplified terms, RAOz is a self administrative, member owned body that is a facsimile of CASA for the relevant aircraft ---- of which there is a very good range. I would thing there is more active private flying in the sector than CASA private GA, and certainly more active pilots than active PPLs.
Indeed, this is where all the action is, as far as private flying is concerned.
This is the affordable and active end of private flying. A very similar system operates in the UK. In particular, medical standards for RAOz are are super simple, if you qualify to drive a private motor car, you qualify for the RAOz medical standard.
Having said that, as you intend to go to a PPL, you should do a CASA medical, and start of with an initial for a first class standard, only downgrade to a Class 2 if you are forced so to do.
There are RAOz flying schools, and many schools that offer both CASA and RAOz streams, and at a later date, converting an RAOz pilot certificate (note: not a "License") into a CASA PPL (an ICAO license) is simple and straightforward.
Rounsounds' advice should be heeded, to the uninitiated buying an aircraft can be a very seductive thought, don't get suckered in at this early stage.
Remember, to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a large fortune.
Tootle pip!!
Have a look at the Recreational Aviation Australia web site, but in simplified terms, RAOz is a self administrative, member owned body that is a facsimile of CASA for the relevant aircraft ---- of which there is a very good range. I would thing there is more active private flying in the sector than CASA private GA, and certainly more active pilots than active PPLs.
Indeed, this is where all the action is, as far as private flying is concerned.
This is the affordable and active end of private flying. A very similar system operates in the UK. In particular, medical standards for RAOz are are super simple, if you qualify to drive a private motor car, you qualify for the RAOz medical standard.
Having said that, as you intend to go to a PPL, you should do a CASA medical, and start of with an initial for a first class standard, only downgrade to a Class 2 if you are forced so to do.
There are RAOz flying schools, and many schools that offer both CASA and RAOz streams, and at a later date, converting an RAOz pilot certificate (note: not a "License") into a CASA PPL (an ICAO license) is simple and straightforward.
Rounsounds' advice should be heeded, to the uninitiated buying an aircraft can be a very seductive thought, don't get suckered in at this early stage.
Remember, to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a large fortune.
Tootle pip!!
Leasing your new toy to a flying school usually ends in tears. Your aircraft is going to be abused by ham fisted ignoramus students like me.
To put that another way, it's not going to have that new car smell when you have finished your initial training.
To put that another way, it's not going to have that new car smell when you have finished your initial training.
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@roundsounds:
Well there are educated acquisitions and then there are impulsive buys. With an aircraft and the joy of the learning to fly, it's hard to keep a straight mind but, still, that's no reason to waste or lose money irresponsibly either. The whole thing has to make somewhat financial sense, and I don't necessarily mean turning a profit but rather minimizing the cost of the whole experience of flying. As with many other things in life, renting is more convenient but also more expensive. In GA, renting is often the only option as the costs levels are so absurdly high that they rule out the overwhelming majority of users.
I get your point, and I don't mean to provoke but won't most people drive the same car for 2-3 years before they change? And usually, they'll drive their car everyday. An aircraft is something that you're going to fly at most once or twice a week if time allows, and perhaps twice a month otherwise. At that frequency, I don't know that I'd want to fly a different type of plane every single time to be honest. Then again, I'm passing my RPL exam shortly and will then begin my cross country training, my views may be subject to change.
@LeadSled: Can you also go the other way, ie. get your PPL (or RPL) and then fly RAOz, with a relevant conversion? If it's cheaper to fly the same aircraft, and if I intend to do just a small recreational flight, RAOz seems amply sufficient.
Also:
I obtained a medical class 2 for now because my instructors advised me to, arguing that one can upgrade to a medical class 1 at a later stage if necessary. What's the reasoning behind your downgrading if forced to advice?
- if you just want to own an aeroplane and can afford it, do it. Don’t try to justify it, just go and buy one.
- do you really want to fly just the one type for several years to come? Maybe get your licence, hire a few different types then decide.
@LeadSled: Can you also go the other way, ie. get your PPL (or RPL) and then fly RAOz, with a relevant conversion? If it's cheaper to fly the same aircraft, and if I intend to do just a small recreational flight, RAOz seems amply sufficient.
Also:
Having said that, as you intend to go to a PPL, you should do a CASA medical, and start of with an initial for a first class standard, only downgrade to a Class 2 if you are forced so to do.
What's your mission after you get your PPL? Every time these threads come up (I created one myself a while ago) you get the inevitable naysayers claiming that you should never buy an aircraft, that you should only rent, and so on...
Where this argument becomes problematic is when you look at the huge costs involved in renting an aircraft for touring. Most clubs or schools have a minimum daily charge if you take the aircraft away from base, and there is the added pressure of having to have the aircraft back so that other bookings that they might have in the future aren't jeopardised.
I've modelled out the cost of ownership extensively for a few four seater types sub-100k, namely PA28, C172, C182, and if you buy a dud aircraft or get unlucky with big problems then of course it is going to cost you a small fortune.
However, my modelling indicates that if you do your due diligence with a suitably qualified engineer and don't overpay for the aircraft then it can be quite cost effective. Even more so if you buy in a partnership of 2-3 people and you are keeping the aircraft at an airfield that is not a capital city secondary airport.
OP, I can see where you are coming from with regard to aircraft choice but there is a reason that the trusty C172 and PA28 designs have endured the test of time. They are also more appealing to students who want to progress on to CPL. I notice you haven't factored in depreciation if you were to buy a newer design LSA...it seems to me that depreciation is not a huge deal on older C172s/PA28s, and in fact good ones are starting to increase in value.
If the age of the aircraft bothers you why don't you look for a mid-90s or later model?
Where this argument becomes problematic is when you look at the huge costs involved in renting an aircraft for touring. Most clubs or schools have a minimum daily charge if you take the aircraft away from base, and there is the added pressure of having to have the aircraft back so that other bookings that they might have in the future aren't jeopardised.
I've modelled out the cost of ownership extensively for a few four seater types sub-100k, namely PA28, C172, C182, and if you buy a dud aircraft or get unlucky with big problems then of course it is going to cost you a small fortune.
However, my modelling indicates that if you do your due diligence with a suitably qualified engineer and don't overpay for the aircraft then it can be quite cost effective. Even more so if you buy in a partnership of 2-3 people and you are keeping the aircraft at an airfield that is not a capital city secondary airport.
OP, I can see where you are coming from with regard to aircraft choice but there is a reason that the trusty C172 and PA28 designs have endured the test of time. They are also more appealing to students who want to progress on to CPL. I notice you haven't factored in depreciation if you were to buy a newer design LSA...it seems to me that depreciation is not a huge deal on older C172s/PA28s, and in fact good ones are starting to increase in value.
If the age of the aircraft bothers you why don't you look for a mid-90s or later model?
Okihara,
Re. CASA license to RAOz, the answer is yes, simple and straightforward.
Re. medical, the Class 1 is always the place to start, because you never know, you may in the future want to progress to higher licenses, even if you have no intention of an aviation pilot career.
I don't recall if you mentioned where you are, geographically, but go have a look at the nearest RAOz schools, sadly these days for GA, they are often the more active, vibrant and generally just fun places to be, like aero clubs of the "good old days".
A final piece of advice, as you are starting to sound like you have already subconsciously made up your mind to buy an aircraft, re-read all the advice as to why you shouldn't, and if you do, keep the aircraft for your own use, forget the blandishments about how you can defray/minimise costs by hiring to a club or school.
Some of the posters on this thread have been around a long time, "been there, done that", and have seen a lot of tears (and $$$$) shed ( some their own) over the years.
We speak from experience. And CASA is only making it harder and harder, everything to do with RAOz is closer to common sense, far less bureaucratic at all levels and as a consequence, more simple and as a result, cheaper. As well as generally a lot more fun.
The difference in setting up and running an RAOz flying school, alone, compared to CASA Part 141 or Part 142 is probably a factor of 10, maybe more.
Tootle pip!!
Re. CASA license to RAOz, the answer is yes, simple and straightforward.
Re. medical, the Class 1 is always the place to start, because you never know, you may in the future want to progress to higher licenses, even if you have no intention of an aviation pilot career.
I don't recall if you mentioned where you are, geographically, but go have a look at the nearest RAOz schools, sadly these days for GA, they are often the more active, vibrant and generally just fun places to be, like aero clubs of the "good old days".
A final piece of advice, as you are starting to sound like you have already subconsciously made up your mind to buy an aircraft, re-read all the advice as to why you shouldn't, and if you do, keep the aircraft for your own use, forget the blandishments about how you can defray/minimise costs by hiring to a club or school.
Some of the posters on this thread have been around a long time, "been there, done that", and have seen a lot of tears (and $$$$) shed ( some their own) over the years.
We speak from experience. And CASA is only making it harder and harder, everything to do with RAOz is closer to common sense, far less bureaucratic at all levels and as a consequence, more simple and as a result, cheaper. As well as generally a lot more fun.
The difference in setting up and running an RAOz flying school, alone, compared to CASA Part 141 or Part 142 is probably a factor of 10, maybe more.
Tootle pip!!
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A final piece of advice, as you are starting to sound like you have already subconsciously made up your mind to buy an aircraft,
, I'm passing my RPL exam shortly
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All the rage with the young and wealthy seems to be with owning a C152 or Piper Cub with big tyres and some modern personal e-kit. Dunno much about this big tyre phenomenon when there are so many smooth ALAs about, guess it's just cool to have them.
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The wisest words so far have been spoken by Unky Bob.
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Flight training insurance: +$4-6K per annum (excluding ab-initio). Be prepared for the inevitable prop strike+engine bulk strip (covered by insurance, but not at replacement cost, at a depreciated level so it'll still cost you lots), loss of hire time (hey nobody compensates you for that, bad luck on your "investment") and countless hours of frigging around with LAMEs, engine rebuilders (if any are left on your airstrip) etc. Also be prepared for early adopter costs relating (e.g. ADSB, could be done with $500 of hardware, but it'll cost you thousands because of early adopter costs) etc. Be prepared to pay several hundred dollars just to contemplate installing a clock or an outside air temperature gauge because you need an engineering order to draw up diagrams and other silly stuff.
Above all, remember, the three F rule.
If it floats, flies or f__ks, rent it by the hour.
Second rule, if you want to become a millionaire through aviation, start with a few billion dollars, then start an airline.
Above all, remember, the three F rule.
If it floats, flies or f__ks, rent it by the hour.
Second rule, if you want to become a millionaire through aviation, start with a few billion dollars, then start an airline.
Dunno much about this big tyre phenomenon when there are so many smooth ALAs about, guess it's just cool to have them.
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