Pilot shortage
Thread Starter
Pilot shortage
Get your hands on tomorrow’s (Thursdays) Australian newspaper.
The shortage of pilots in Australia is on the front page.
No mention of how our friends the Regulators have bastardised the training industry so badly that flight training is nonexistent or owned by foreigners.
What a debacle.
The shortage of pilots in Australia is on the front page.
No mention of how our friends the Regulators have bastardised the training industry so badly that flight training is nonexistent or owned by foreigners.
What a debacle.
I have written an opinion piece that explains how CASA has a cult attitude to not looking at cost and affordability . May be run in the Aus tomorrow. Who knows!
Everyone can then attack me and claim that it was all my fault because before my time we had un affordable safety and that was lots better.
Everyone can then attack me and claim that it was all my fault because before my time we had un affordable safety and that was lots better.
Dick, I think we can put the blame on the Airports Act for much of this, industry has seen this coming for 20 years. It would have been great if you could have focussed your resources and public profile on the rampant exploitation of aviation businesses by property developers but it's too late now. Successive governments have just sat back and let this happen.
Fake News...unless the media has a handle on strangulation by regulation.
Dick, we will never know what might have happened if all the old hands didnt take VRs back in the day. Unintended consequences. This beast is unrecognizable!
Dick, we will never know what might have happened if all the old hands didnt take VRs back in the day. Unintended consequences. This beast is unrecognizable!
.....by the way....how is OneSky coming along? Hear about lots of construction happening without any idea....maybe an extention lead or two required in Brisvegas? How about dialing 1100 before you dig in at ML? If the construction is shoddy, whats happening behind the scenes with data connection and security......AirServices isnt a phone company......and a phone company isnt AirServices!
Opinion piece by former CASA Chairman Dick Smith in The Australian. Dec 28 TH 2018
“I don’t think you should ever regard Aviation safety as what is affordable “
- Transport Minister John Anderson Oct 5 th 2000
I welcome the appointment of Barnaby Joyce as Australia’s new Minister for Transport. He certainly has a challenge in front of him when it comes to Australia’s General Aviation industry, which is in a state of near collapse after years of failed government policy.
It will take someone as senior as the deputy Prime Minister to sort this mess out. As The Australian has reported, General Aviation – so vital in a big country like ours – is in serious trouble. Crippled by skyrocketing regulatory costs and pointless red tape, businesses are closing and much of the flying training industry is being sold off to Chinese buyers at bargain rates.
A federal government report last week showed the drastic decline brought on by the excessive costs: General Aviation flying hours ,which includes the vital flying training industry , have declined by 40 per cent in just five years.
But none of this is new. I have been warning that introducing regulations which ignore cost has been crippling the industry for years. 17 years ago I got into a very public disagreement with Mr Joyce’s predecessor as minister, John Anderson who introduced the polices that have resulted in today’s mess.
At the time I was chairman of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority and I warned Mr Anderson that the substantial additional costs that had been placed on the industry by the sell-off of the airports and the “ user pays” air traffic control system would have to be balanced by a reduction in other costs.
Driven by bureaucrats with little understanding of business, he pursued a policy of regulations regardless of cost, with the inevitable result that ridiculous levels of regulation have made it impossible to maintain a viable industry . It seems that for the bureaucrats, the safest skies are empty skies similar to the “Yes Minister” episode of the hospital with no patients!
The Minister refused to meet with me to discuss the issue, releasing a public statement that showed how little he understood: “I don’t think that you should ever regard aviation safety as what is affordable,” he claimed. “Safety is something which has the highest priority – it is not a question of cost.”
In effect he was saying that with air safety there was no cost that was too high to pay, ignoring the fact that this would make the cost of air tickets un affordable to anyone other than the ultra wealthy.
Mr Anderson’s public statement was quickly embraced by the bureaucrats within the Civil Aviation Safety Authority and the denial that cost should be considered became an almost cult like belief which still exists in the organisation to this day .
Aviation is like anything else in life. The amount of money that you can spend on safety is always limited by what the marketplace can afford. If regulations are written which increase the cost of flying too much , people can’t afford to fly and businesses go broke.
The inevitable result of this stubborn insistence that there are no limits to the costs that could be imposed on the Aviation industry is a situation where operators simply can’t afford to meet the red-tape and expenses.
It has done nothing to improve safety, and will very likely lead to a situation where the majority of pilots in Australia will come from Asia. The losers are many of Mr Joyce’s constituents in rural and regional Australia who rely greatly on general aviation as a vital link in Australia’s transport system.
It means we will lose hundreds millions of dollars in export earnings from flight training and other operations that are no longer Australian owned
Before Mr Anderson became Minister, the CASA Service Charter directed that Australia should follow “ proven safe procedures and standards from leading aviation countries which best allocate finite safety resources, to protect fare paying passengers and encourage high participation levels in aviation.”
But this directive was removed from the charter in the Anderson years. I fought these changes while Chairman of CASA, but failed to overcome an entrenched public service and a minister in denial . I resigned rather than be held responsible for the slow death of an industry that I have been a part of for more than 40 years.
I hope now that under a new Minister, we can get back to a sensible policy that balances costs and regulation in a rational way. Mr Joyce will need to move quickly to reverse the disastrous “ ignore cost “ policies of the past. I will give him every support and I do hope he listens to the industry before it is too late.
“I don’t think you should ever regard Aviation safety as what is affordable “
- Transport Minister John Anderson Oct 5 th 2000
I welcome the appointment of Barnaby Joyce as Australia’s new Minister for Transport. He certainly has a challenge in front of him when it comes to Australia’s General Aviation industry, which is in a state of near collapse after years of failed government policy.
It will take someone as senior as the deputy Prime Minister to sort this mess out. As The Australian has reported, General Aviation – so vital in a big country like ours – is in serious trouble. Crippled by skyrocketing regulatory costs and pointless red tape, businesses are closing and much of the flying training industry is being sold off to Chinese buyers at bargain rates.
A federal government report last week showed the drastic decline brought on by the excessive costs: General Aviation flying hours ,which includes the vital flying training industry , have declined by 40 per cent in just five years.
But none of this is new. I have been warning that introducing regulations which ignore cost has been crippling the industry for years. 17 years ago I got into a very public disagreement with Mr Joyce’s predecessor as minister, John Anderson who introduced the polices that have resulted in today’s mess.
At the time I was chairman of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority and I warned Mr Anderson that the substantial additional costs that had been placed on the industry by the sell-off of the airports and the “ user pays” air traffic control system would have to be balanced by a reduction in other costs.
Driven by bureaucrats with little understanding of business, he pursued a policy of regulations regardless of cost, with the inevitable result that ridiculous levels of regulation have made it impossible to maintain a viable industry . It seems that for the bureaucrats, the safest skies are empty skies similar to the “Yes Minister” episode of the hospital with no patients!
The Minister refused to meet with me to discuss the issue, releasing a public statement that showed how little he understood: “I don’t think that you should ever regard aviation safety as what is affordable,” he claimed. “Safety is something which has the highest priority – it is not a question of cost.”
In effect he was saying that with air safety there was no cost that was too high to pay, ignoring the fact that this would make the cost of air tickets un affordable to anyone other than the ultra wealthy.
Mr Anderson’s public statement was quickly embraced by the bureaucrats within the Civil Aviation Safety Authority and the denial that cost should be considered became an almost cult like belief which still exists in the organisation to this day .
Aviation is like anything else in life. The amount of money that you can spend on safety is always limited by what the marketplace can afford. If regulations are written which increase the cost of flying too much , people can’t afford to fly and businesses go broke.
The inevitable result of this stubborn insistence that there are no limits to the costs that could be imposed on the Aviation industry is a situation where operators simply can’t afford to meet the red-tape and expenses.
It has done nothing to improve safety, and will very likely lead to a situation where the majority of pilots in Australia will come from Asia. The losers are many of Mr Joyce’s constituents in rural and regional Australia who rely greatly on general aviation as a vital link in Australia’s transport system.
It means we will lose hundreds millions of dollars in export earnings from flight training and other operations that are no longer Australian owned
Before Mr Anderson became Minister, the CASA Service Charter directed that Australia should follow “ proven safe procedures and standards from leading aviation countries which best allocate finite safety resources, to protect fare paying passengers and encourage high participation levels in aviation.”
But this directive was removed from the charter in the Anderson years. I fought these changes while Chairman of CASA, but failed to overcome an entrenched public service and a minister in denial . I resigned rather than be held responsible for the slow death of an industry that I have been a part of for more than 40 years.
I hope now that under a new Minister, we can get back to a sensible policy that balances costs and regulation in a rational way. Mr Joyce will need to move quickly to reverse the disastrous “ ignore cost “ policies of the past. I will give him every support and I do hope he listens to the industry before it is too late.
Hopefully aussie pilots vote with their feet and follow the coin. I honestly think the whole aviation system is screwed in Oz. I left for an overseas gig earlier in the year and couldn’t be happier.
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Do not over think this. It is very simple, its not a shortage of flight training schools or caused by overseas companies buying up flight schools or a general lack of pilots.
Its because the low end of GA has died.
The nursery of all our pilots no longer exists. I know I was one of the GA AOC holders that took on newly qualified CPL's with pride and guided them up through the ranks to get them to a highly skilled MECIR pilot stage ready to take the jump into regional airlines and they did.
30 years in the Aviation business and we bump into or are still in contact with ex pilots of ours are captains and first officers on everything from regional airlines to long haul. They are very quick to comment to me about the quality of Cadets compared to industry trained pilots that spent time bashing around the bush.
There is still a large oversupply of new CPL's out there thanks to Vet and Help fees (dont get me started on that one) but no first jobs like sitting in a 172 doing scenics, waiting to crawl up the experience ladder for the little GA AOC holder as they no longer exist. Those that do are just hanging on in the hope it will get better. A lot of these operators don't have the time and money to employ newly minted pilots but are looking for 400 hr pilots as a minimum.
Safe skys come from experience however we have lost such a wealth of knowledge from the demise of the Dad and Mum passionate piston AOC holders and the crusty old Flight instructors that this experience isn't getting passed onto the new guard. The quality of pilots is declining.
Governments are insisting more and more and more that contracts go to turbo prop pressurized aircraft on routes that have been served well over the years by piston engine aircraft, without incident, because of perceived safety, but at what cost to the industry? Who is going to put a good 210 driver into a King Air or a Conquest? The Chieftains and the 402 and Barons were the training ground for the Kingairs and Conquests. There is no bottom rung on the ladder anymore. Therefore the regional RPT operators have no choice to source pilots from overseas or they have to increase their Cadet ships.
RIP GA
Mick
Its because the low end of GA has died.
The nursery of all our pilots no longer exists. I know I was one of the GA AOC holders that took on newly qualified CPL's with pride and guided them up through the ranks to get them to a highly skilled MECIR pilot stage ready to take the jump into regional airlines and they did.
30 years in the Aviation business and we bump into or are still in contact with ex pilots of ours are captains and first officers on everything from regional airlines to long haul. They are very quick to comment to me about the quality of Cadets compared to industry trained pilots that spent time bashing around the bush.
There is still a large oversupply of new CPL's out there thanks to Vet and Help fees (dont get me started on that one) but no first jobs like sitting in a 172 doing scenics, waiting to crawl up the experience ladder for the little GA AOC holder as they no longer exist. Those that do are just hanging on in the hope it will get better. A lot of these operators don't have the time and money to employ newly minted pilots but are looking for 400 hr pilots as a minimum.
Safe skys come from experience however we have lost such a wealth of knowledge from the demise of the Dad and Mum passionate piston AOC holders and the crusty old Flight instructors that this experience isn't getting passed onto the new guard. The quality of pilots is declining.
Governments are insisting more and more and more that contracts go to turbo prop pressurized aircraft on routes that have been served well over the years by piston engine aircraft, without incident, because of perceived safety, but at what cost to the industry? Who is going to put a good 210 driver into a King Air or a Conquest? The Chieftains and the 402 and Barons were the training ground for the Kingairs and Conquests. There is no bottom rung on the ladder anymore. Therefore the regional RPT operators have no choice to source pilots from overseas or they have to increase their Cadet ships.
RIP GA
Mick
Hopefully aussie pilots vote with their feet and follow the coin
The sheer vastness of the Australian continent, coupled with low population outside the capital cities and a general decline in regional infrastructure, means that Australia will always be reliant on general aviation. I would hate to see a situation where the RFDS had to curtail their services, and they are but one example of an essential component of what we refer to as GA in Australia.
Regional Australia has perhaps the greatest opportunity it has ever had to become the food basket for Asia, but inevitably this will rely in part on decent infrastructure and a healthy GA sector.
I applaud Dick for being willing to stick his head up and speak for our industry. Much better than having someone state (10 years down the track) ".....how did this happen......." or "....why didn't someone say something....."
Plenty of people were saying something, when the property developers were spreading fake news that they were the "owners" of Jandakot and were going to "Relocate" it, thus creating a sovereign risk for all tenants and making their investments in infrastructure worthless. They couldn't close Jandakot but it took years of hard work and lobbying by the tenants, while Dick was still talking about airspace, just to be able to maintain our right to quiet enjoyment of our leases without harassment from the leaseholders, who are not Australian, nor are they Chinese. ..in fact China Southern as tenants were a powerful ally in the battle to keep Jandakot as an airport.
"took our jerbs" is much more newsworthy I guess. Not sure where al these pilots are going to come from?
"took our jerbs" is much more newsworthy I guess. Not sure where al these pilots are going to come from?
HA. HA HA. HAAA HAAA HAAA HAAA. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAA HAA HAAAAA.
That's the noise I'm going to make the next time I go to work and sit next to one of your beloved poster children.
It won't take long, I promise you.
Standard generalised pattern: 1. Cadet bash 2. Big note yourself for being a GA skygod 3. Screw up XYZ 4. Deflect 5. Cadet bash... Rinse and repeat.
Yup, whatever.
That's the noise I'm going to make the next time I go to work and sit next to one of your beloved poster children.
It won't take long, I promise you.
Standard generalised pattern: 1. Cadet bash 2. Big note yourself for being a GA skygod 3. Screw up XYZ 4. Deflect 5. Cadet bash... Rinse and repeat.
Yup, whatever.
TM, your attitude honestly says a lot to me and others about yourself. Irrespective of your own path into Aviation Mick Stuped has clearly been around for a very long time and so have the Pilots he has kept in contact with and that by itself deserves a bit less of an attitude from yourself. When experienced Pilots (Not just Experienced in GA but obviously high time Captains of Jets) are commenting on the Quality of Cadets perhaps you should listen instead of brushing it off simply because you feel that you're more than qualified and therefore everyone else must be as well. Perhaps instead of doing the same basic brand of bashing you're accusing them of you could simply relay your own experiences instead?
Both routes produce both good and bad Pilots for various reasons, after several hundred hours I don't doubt that a Cadet and someone who came up through GA will be indistinguishable all other things being equal but at the beginning would you rather a GA Pilot who has been through stressful situations in a Cockpit sitting next to you helping you deal with it or a raw cadet for whom this might be the first real situation outside of a Sim that they're dealing with?
Personally I think one of the biggest problems with the current generation (Including myself) are the way that Sims are viewed, yes they're stressful for anyone but I believe we view it as more of a game, it's not a life or death situation so how you react there can be extremely different to how you could react once you're sitting upfront and the realisation hits you that there's now really a couple hundred tons of real metal, fuel and flesh behind you and that makes the Cadet at the initial stages more of an unknown quantity IMHO."
Getting back on topic though, I really do feel like this is a failing on the part of CASA for not doing enough to fully foster Australia's' potential as a Training ground that can provide some of the worlds best training, not just for bare CPL but for larger Type Ratings and everything else inbetween. I often seen FAA and EASA Courses that advertise CPL and then a Type Rating as well, but I can't think of a single training organisation in Australia that boasts the same and from what I've heard and been told cost is one of the biggest problems, it's simply not worth their effort which means when the Airlines go looking for Pilots with Type Ratings as a minimum of course they're not finding Australian Pilots, they're finding European and American ones who did it with their initial training.
Both routes produce both good and bad Pilots for various reasons, after several hundred hours I don't doubt that a Cadet and someone who came up through GA will be indistinguishable all other things being equal but at the beginning would you rather a GA Pilot who has been through stressful situations in a Cockpit sitting next to you helping you deal with it or a raw cadet for whom this might be the first real situation outside of a Sim that they're dealing with?
Personally I think one of the biggest problems with the current generation (Including myself) are the way that Sims are viewed, yes they're stressful for anyone but I believe we view it as more of a game, it's not a life or death situation so how you react there can be extremely different to how you could react once you're sitting upfront and the realisation hits you that there's now really a couple hundred tons of real metal, fuel and flesh behind you and that makes the Cadet at the initial stages more of an unknown quantity IMHO."
Getting back on topic though, I really do feel like this is a failing on the part of CASA for not doing enough to fully foster Australia's' potential as a Training ground that can provide some of the worlds best training, not just for bare CPL but for larger Type Ratings and everything else inbetween. I often seen FAA and EASA Courses that advertise CPL and then a Type Rating as well, but I can't think of a single training organisation in Australia that boasts the same and from what I've heard and been told cost is one of the biggest problems, it's simply not worth their effort which means when the Airlines go looking for Pilots with Type Ratings as a minimum of course they're not finding Australian Pilots, they're finding European and American ones who did it with their initial training.
Thread Starter
TurboMaggot, I was listening to an experienced Chief Pilot of GA talking the other week. This man has over 30k hours and has flown in a number of countries, including in his beloved Australian Outback.
His comment on cadets vs GA:
GA pilots make a little error in a little aircraft, fix it, learn from it and move on.
Cadets make a little error in a big aircraft, sometimes manage to fix it, and hopefully move on.
And the gentleman I am referring to is neither Dick Smith nor Mick Stup.
However the pilot shortage is due to many factors, in my opinion, including (but not limited to):
Large RPT not willing to cough up big dollars for quality staff, but trying to employ pilots and base them off shore, and pay a contracted rate thus avoiding the princely wages, terms and conditions of the Australian award.
An insistence by some companies for turbine pressurised aircraft for jobs that up until 5 years ago were done by piston twins, thus reducing the amount of work available for piston twins. Piston twins being the natural stepping stone between single engine pistons and turbines.
Higher maintenance costs under Australian Regs - I would love to see a comparative maintenance costs on standard aircraft in different first world countries where GA is thriving vs Australia.
The cost of training vs the declining standard of product being put out by flight training schools, thus giving a rise in organisations providing post CPL training which includes - how to land on a dirt strip, how to refuel from drums, etc
And the unending cost of rewriting the Regs - money for consultants and experts and dedicated personnel - money which must come from somewhere......
The diversion of the taxes on Avgas from funding aviation infrastructure into the bottomless pit that is politicians perks.
And a regulator that is rarely challenged, that is governed by a minister who doesn’t know sh!t from shoe polish about the industry he is trying to monitor, and that is answerable to no one. A regulator that is both law maker and law enforcer....
His comment on cadets vs GA:
GA pilots make a little error in a little aircraft, fix it, learn from it and move on.
Cadets make a little error in a big aircraft, sometimes manage to fix it, and hopefully move on.
And the gentleman I am referring to is neither Dick Smith nor Mick Stup.
However the pilot shortage is due to many factors, in my opinion, including (but not limited to):
Large RPT not willing to cough up big dollars for quality staff, but trying to employ pilots and base them off shore, and pay a contracted rate thus avoiding the princely wages, terms and conditions of the Australian award.
An insistence by some companies for turbine pressurised aircraft for jobs that up until 5 years ago were done by piston twins, thus reducing the amount of work available for piston twins. Piston twins being the natural stepping stone between single engine pistons and turbines.
Higher maintenance costs under Australian Regs - I would love to see a comparative maintenance costs on standard aircraft in different first world countries where GA is thriving vs Australia.
The cost of training vs the declining standard of product being put out by flight training schools, thus giving a rise in organisations providing post CPL training which includes - how to land on a dirt strip, how to refuel from drums, etc
And the unending cost of rewriting the Regs - money for consultants and experts and dedicated personnel - money which must come from somewhere......
The diversion of the taxes on Avgas from funding aviation infrastructure into the bottomless pit that is politicians perks.
And a regulator that is rarely challenged, that is governed by a minister who doesn’t know sh!t from shoe polish about the industry he is trying to monitor, and that is answerable to no one. A regulator that is both law maker and law enforcer....
Alas if I was a young lad I would be striving for 1500 hours and running to the states, unless that horse has bolted...
Think about it, 1500 hours, get a jet FO seat, flying in a first world country with now decent money with cost of living. What? 3/4 years upgrade, yes if we were Aus 10/15 years ago but now even LCC what 10? Years? Surely 457’s won’t be DEC? Or will they.
Why do Aussies go the expat option? Money? Yes, career progression? Yes? Lifestyle? Maybe? But no it’s not Aus....
So many countries have or allow expats because they NEED THEM, aka UAE. Does AUS? No there are enough blokes belting around in GA that should get that airline chance, ok maybe then GA will need 457’s, but give he local bloke a shot first.
And as for expats returning to the bottom of the seniority list, yep if enough coin saved, otherwise why?
Remember life’s not perfect anywhere and it’s becoming less and less perfect in the lucky country.....
Think about it, 1500 hours, get a jet FO seat, flying in a first world country with now decent money with cost of living. What? 3/4 years upgrade, yes if we were Aus 10/15 years ago but now even LCC what 10? Years? Surely 457’s won’t be DEC? Or will they.
Why do Aussies go the expat option? Money? Yes, career progression? Yes? Lifestyle? Maybe? But no it’s not Aus....
So many countries have or allow expats because they NEED THEM, aka UAE. Does AUS? No there are enough blokes belting around in GA that should get that airline chance, ok maybe then GA will need 457’s, but give he local bloke a shot first.
And as for expats returning to the bottom of the seniority list, yep if enough coin saved, otherwise why?
Remember life’s not perfect anywhere and it’s becoming less and less perfect in the lucky country.....
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Fair enough.
There's obviously a reason behind why I wrote what I did but with hindsight and a swift kick up the arse I can see that it was incredibly impulsive, misplaced and rude.
I apologise for my disrespectful comments.
Edit: I've removed my original comment. I realise it still exists as a quotation but for the sake acknowledging my error it was appropriate to do so. Once again I sincerely apologise to all concerned.
There's obviously a reason behind why I wrote what I did but with hindsight and a swift kick up the arse I can see that it was incredibly impulsive, misplaced and rude.
I apologise for my disrespectful comments.
Edit: I've removed my original comment. I realise it still exists as a quotation but for the sake acknowledging my error it was appropriate to do so. Once again I sincerely apologise to all concerned.
Last edited by TurboMaggot; 29th Dec 2017 at 15:44. Reason: Clarification
They are very quick to comment to me about the quality of Cadets compared to industry trained pilots that spent time bashing around the bush.
I fly with cadets all of the time. They actually are high quality - even cadets have had a couple of years worth of training and many test opportunities that remove the unsuitable.
