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Unbelievable that airline bans manual flying by copilots

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Unbelievable that airline bans manual flying by copilots

Old 22nd Dec 2017, 10:53
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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... and that matters, how??
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 13:31
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It’s now all about the statistical chance of shite hitting the fan. If the Swiss cheese is lining up then..... Like duck says I’d rather not be down the back with a fresh minted 250 FO at the controls in a single pilot scenario, luckily the chance of this ever happening are fark all.

Yes the MPL program is oriented to flying a bus, however you cannot but, get, gain experience without going thru the shite.

As I’ve said before and will say again, we now have Airline Captains that have never been in command of anything (apart from min hours in a 172), no 500 hours solo command no command, all PICUS, is that really command?

However it’s the way of the future until the drone operator controls the flight....

Last edited by Global Aviator; 22nd Dec 2017 at 13:33. Reason: Whiskey again...
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 15:18
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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They haven't been in Command of anything - but they have been sitting next to, and watching, someone in Command for quite a while before they get the opportunity.

Don't get me wrong - I came up through GA, piston & turbine, before airlines - and I wouldn't have it any other way. I think these guys miss out on an awful lot in aviation and there is a concern about the lack of breadth of knowledge, especially when everyone (training department, management) have come through the same system.

But I don't think that makes these guys any less talented or intelligent, and the difference that I can see on the line is almost negligible.
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Old 22nd Dec 2017, 16:50
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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"Too many options in the modern day cockpit has lead to reduced safety."

but accident rates continue to fall - especially in airliners
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 01:28
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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I think most of this type of discussion is just "alarmist" noise.At the very early stages of the low hours/freshly minted pilots career, there is certainly a higher than normal element of risk, that is for sure, however once they break through their first 1000 hours or so they are all at very similar levels of ability as pilots who come from more traditional routes to a jet cockpit.Once they get to the command level, they are just as good as anyone, it is not necessary to have thousands of GA hours to reach a Jet PIC position.That is rubbish.Ive personally trained many of them on to big jets and many have reached command now, quite effortlessly, Peter BJ.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 03:07
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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One persons assessment of competence will be different from anotherís ... depending on their ..... experience!
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 11:32
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Obviously our training is far more advanced these days due to more very experienced instructors getting into the flying schools

Are you talking about these instructors immediately after WW2? Or 2017? if the latter you must be joking
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 12:45
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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There are co pilots in aircraft at the moment, that shouldn't even be there, leave alone touch the controls.

How are you going to get them weaned off the automatics if they are unable to practise hand flying??? Hang on, I am aware there are a few Captains around also that are almost entirely dependent on automatics. What's wrong with that you ask??? Well what if the automatics fail?? God help us I say.

Last edited by Dan_Brown; 23rd Dec 2017 at 17:12.
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 15:46
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by josephfeatherweight View Post
That's the spirit, shut him down quick smart!
And you wonder why he didn't "explore your comment" further??
Is that really what you said?
If the FO had to ask that question, he deserved that answer and a meeting with the C.P. without tea or biscuits.


GF
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Old 23rd Dec 2017, 17:39
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by witwiw View Post
"Captain, I notice you didn't use the auto pilot at all on that flight - why?".
My response: "Son, if you have to ask that question, you'll never understand ............"

And that was the end of the conversation - no attempt to explore my comment or what I was trying to say, nothing. It's not just today's "Magenta Children" with issues.
I can't wait till I'm a captain and I can act like a knob to co-pilots. Must have made your day if you're still telling anyone that will listen 20 years later!!
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 01:10
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Itís a catch 22 situation, if Pilots fly manually in the aircraft then there will be incidents. If Pilots use the automation then there will be fewer incidents, until they have to fly manually when there will be more incidents because they are out of practice.

In the past simulators were used to practice for flying aircraft, now aircraft are used to practice for check rides in simulators. Typically a pilot goes for 3-6 months between Sim sessions. After relying on the automation for an extended period he has a base check coming up in a few days and decides to do an approach with auto thrust and flight directors off. Then the fun starts with speed and flight path excursions as the engines power up and down, unstabilised approach/ go around/ hard landing is the result.

Safety department sees a trend and bans manual flying, examiners see a lower standard on base checks due to lack of currency.

A suitable solution would be regular manual flying sessions in a simulator every month or so but that costs money.
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 05:40
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Tee Emm, I threw that remark in for shits and giggles.

I have a weird sense of humour and if one was to call me a left fielder, that would be a gross understatement.

Upset training should also be incorporated into the Part 61 MOS requirements for the grant of a CPL and ATPL, IMHO.

Merry Christmas, and for all those who will be on duty, have a great day.
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 23:08
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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I second Metro man.
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 23:30
  #34 (permalink)  
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Why is this in "The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions"?
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 02:19
  #35 (permalink)  
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A suitable solution would be regular manual flying sessions in a simulator every month or so but that costs money.
Alternatively, the current sessions could be reviewed and amended to significantly reduce the amount of wasted and unproductive waffle that occurs in LOFT exercises and that includes such items taxiing long distances, talking to the mythical cabin crew, mythical ground crew, mythical ATC. After all this, requires the pilot to be actors and few us can act. Time saved would then permit manual flying sessions; including repeats of stuff up's that are inevitable for those lacking manual flying skills.
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 09:22
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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to Slezy and Featherweight, you have missed the point entirely.
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 10:01
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No, I think I got it, I just would have done the same thing without being a SkyGod about it, and, when the copilot asked politely why I'd flown without the autopilot (which, by the way, is usually mentioned in a good pre-flight brief), I'd have taken the opportunity to provide them with a reasoned, informative response without being a mega knob about it. I'd then encourage them to try it on the next sector...
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 11:33
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by witwiw View Post
to Slezy and Featherweight, you have missed the point entirely.
Ok, then explain it for me?
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 22:45
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Have to agree with Centaurus as well.
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Old 26th Dec 2017, 08:31
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Relevant points, JFW.

My intention to hand fly the short sector was indeed part of my briefing - makes you wonder how much sank in at the time, though, with the nature of the question at the end.

The F/O was given the opportunity on the next several sectors but declined.

To help Slezy9 understand - the context of the question wasn't so much as why I hand flew it but why didn't I use the automatics because they were available.

Last edited by witwiw; 26th Dec 2017 at 08:33. Reason: grammar
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