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A "Forgetting" Organisation?

Old 29th Nov 2017, 22:08
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A "Forgetting" Organisation?

One of the articles of faith I absorbed as a teenager and young adult was that aviation institutions in Australia were "learning organisations" because the cause of aviation safety demanded nothing less than complete transparency by everyone engaged in the industry. How wrong I was.

I don't know how I received this idea. It might have been from reading volumes of the old crash comics in the Ansett library. It might have been reading the volumes of internal incident reports and investigations into component failures and fixes. I later wrote a few myself that I like to think embodied that spirit; transparency, no blame or encomium, just learning so it didn't happen again.

I missed the giveaways that I was wrong in ab-initio flight training. The strange silences when I asked about specific things. Being cautioned against writing things up in the MR. The "it always does that" response to aircraft behaviour queries. A near miss learning STOL at YCEM - a real "gotcha" that could have killed us, but nothing heard thereafter. The fire caused by a rag in a heater duct. Then of course bending a Cessna firewall from a behaviour by myself that must have been as old as aviation itself but that was new to me. Some learning. Others are going to repeat these mistakes.

I thought that at least the ATSB was a learning organisation what with its unbiased safety reporting and all. But after the initial Norfolk Island report I discovered that all it was interested in doing was being a political fig leaf for its masters. CASA, from reading PPRuNe, turns out to be simply a punitive regulator with no interest in learning, merely rigid compliance. For example where is the scholarly work on fuel planning, including traps for young players? All there is is a regulation; don't run out of fuel - 50 penalty points and a criminal record. You cant learn in the CASA system because learning involves testing new ideas, and that is illegal and punished. You can't learn from the errors of others if people are too scared to admit a mistake. "Outcome based" training is another fig leaf to hide a lack of learning and understanding.

I now look at what I have built and think of the numerous "non compliances" a CASA Airworthiness inspector could find if they really tried. Shall I risk finishing it and flying it? I'm sure it will fly but its the regulator I fear. I think of the people whose careers imploded because CASA did not like their "attitude" or who became victims of forensic searches for errors in records looking for something to convict. I read in the AAT decisions about serial injustice.

I read about the minutiae of maintenance regulations, the behaviour of the CASA medical section. Is it any wonder that most pilots have at least two doctors? I think of the "maintenance statement" i have to write in the aircraft logbook and how it might one day be used to convict me of crime. I decide that the best way is to write as little as possible. Not the safest way, the best way from a legal standpoint. I vow never, ever, to fly anywhere near a CASA operative. I make a mental note to make myself scarce if I ever detect one. These people are not teachers of anything except abject obedience.

The characteristics of a learning organisation:

An atmosphere of trust and acceptance

People taking ownership of their learning

Senior managers and leaders walking the learning talk

Values and vision that people robustly debate, share and articulate

Rich communication and feedback loops

Collaboration between different silos and with external partners

Staff excited about their work and about belonging to the company

Learning evident at individual, team and organisational levels

Systems in place to support learning

Last edited by Sunfish; 30th Nov 2017 at 01:19.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 22:18
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I think this is a good write-up, Sunfish, and worthy of individuals reading particularly when considering a potential training provider - or even more so, when re-considering one!
However, I must say, you appear to have had a really bad run of luck in your training experience - fortunate you can look back on it and reassess the experience in hindsight.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 22:27
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Interesting comment, Sunny...and so true.

CAsA is a police organization that wants to teach you something...like a costly lesson if they dont like your 'attitude'. With NCNs, complex regulatory goobledegook backed up by strict liability, the punitive approach is CAsA's way of getting the message through.

"Safety" is all...to them, it doesnt matter what bureaucratic buggery goes with it to make the 'case'

And if a CAsA person breaks the law, CAsA goes into protection overdrive/CYA 10i and sees for their own.
When Police investigate the wrongdoing of their own, it doesnt pass the public 'smell' test. With CAsA the stench is the same.
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Old 29th Nov 2017, 23:49
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Casa in the early days dca caa etc had what we have now. In the 90ites approx there was a change. It was all good then over night more ex military became awi and the rote started.

Ncn for useing a longer than the ipc spilt pin
Ncn for a washer that the wrong part number same washer different package ( in house number same number)

Casa lie and cheat deceive and use the lame as their police force and prosecute them if they dont.
Its a dictatorship.
Poeple dont put defect reports because they get turned around onto them. Its a clear state of mind that we live in that at all times its someone's fault and they must be prosecuted for.

Aviation has never been in an unsafe environment than what we have been placed into now.

Regulations that are by designed to intrap the unaware and clearly in another thread now on prune that can be seen.

Whats clear and has been told to me is casa dose not wont ga. Its to hard for them to regulate.

Yes aroa they are corupt to the extreme what they done to you proves it. But like sam he will get off. Insteed of being charged with treason and goal time he will walk. Casa goverment is filled with so much outright corruption.

Prehaps if an awi is found to be lyning he faces a fine and goal time for a start. That may start to clean things up. But i wont hold my breath for that.
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 00:08
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turns out to be simply a punitive regulator with no interest in learning, merely rigid compliance.
It is sad that the blokes that promoted learning in CASA have long since retired. Over the 30 odd years I had dealing directly with CASA, the organisation gradually changed, especially after moving from on airport offices to "commercial" office space.

Several FOI (and Examiners) went over and above what was required of them and I am grateful for that. One could talk pilot to pilot over a coffee in their lunch room.

In the early 90s I sat down with and FOI and we went through the OM paragraph by paragraph.

Gradually, after moving to "commercial" office space, that access changed. I remember one day I was having a discussion with a FOI at his desk when I was asked to remove myself from the work place. If I wanted to have a chat with the FOI, I had to make it official and have it in a designated meeting room.

One FOI remarked that he could not attend the local Christmas Party as he was told that he should not be seen mixing socially with the industry.

It gradually became worse. Not even a front desk - just a button to ring a bell somewhere in the building. No direct delivery of documents. All had to got to some mysterious mail clearing office in Canberra. If the mail delivery did not require a signature, the delivery never arrived even though AustPost could show delivery.

I am glad I retired when I did. CASA had lost its way and its soul.
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 03:17
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Is it just CASA that has 'gone bad' or is it society as a whole?

Minor things used to be worked out off the books though not any more - nowadays lawyers are involved even for the most trivial.





.
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 06:48
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Man Bilong Balus long PNG
 
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Not all that long ago I heard an old, experienced (and now retired) Instructor say of CASA that its motto could be expressed as..

"The beatings will continue until morale improves!"

Cannot disagree with that, M'self.
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 07:32
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One of the articles of faith I absorbed as a teenager and young adult was that aviation institutions in Australia were "learning organisations" because the cause of aviation safety demanded nothing less than complete transparency by everyone engaged in the industry. How wrong I was.
Look Sunny, I hate to say it but if the industry was to provide all the services you seem to require the cost would be double.

While some of the events you describe in your learning process are sad and avoidable, they will continue in schools where inexperienced commercial pilots become inexperienced instructors. This is the way the industry is because experienced instructors cost a whole lot more than beginners.

It is also a fact that learning to fly is largely "self help" affair. A whole heap of folk don't make it. At the last establishment I worked at there were literally hundreds logbooks of the starters who never made it going back to the '60s. No doubt some of these folk would have stayed to completion with better instructors but simply they weren't available. The industry supports instructors who see training hours as stepping stones onto bigger and better jobs. To think you can turn up at a school, learn all there is about "lesson x" and then go home and forget aviation till the next lesson is plain naive. The honest schools will tell you this and set homework then make sure you have done it.

Now, we could hurl rocks at CASA here too but while the organization is a stubborn bureaucracy, in the 3 decades I have been in the industry, by and large I have had great experiences with their employees. I have no paranoia about going where they might be lurking and the ramp checks I have experienced as a commercial pilot have all been easy going.

I think it has always been this way.
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 08:24
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Originally Posted by Aussie Bob View Post
Look Sunny, I hate to say it but if the industry was to provide all the services you seem to require the cost would be double.

While some of the events you describe in your learning process are sad and avoidable, they will continue in schools where inexperienced commercial pilots become inexperienced instructors. This is the way the industry is because experienced instructors cost a whole lot more than beginners.

It is also a fact that learning to fly is largely "self help" affair. A whole heap of folk don't make it. At the last establishment I worked at there were literally hundreds logbooks of the starters who never made it going back to the '60s. No doubt some of these folk would have stayed to completion with better instructors but simply they weren't available. The industry supports instructors who see training hours as stepping stones onto bigger and better jobs. To think you can turn up at a school, learn all there is about "lesson x" and then go home and forget aviation till the next lesson is plain naive. The honest schools will tell you this and set homework then make sure you have done it.

Now, we could hurl rocks at CASA here too but while the organization is a stubborn bureaucracy, in the 3 decades I have been in the industry, by and large I have had great experiences with their employees. I have no paranoia about going where they might be lurking and the ramp checks I have experienced as a commercial pilot have all been easy going.

I think it has always been this way.
Would appear that there are(is?) two industries, the one Aussie Bob and I operate in and the one the Sunfish et al operate in.
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 08:27
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Originally Posted by Pinky the pilot View Post
Not all that long ago I heard an old, experienced (and now retired) Instructor say of CASA that its motto could be expressed as..

"The beatings will continue until morale improves!"

Cannot disagree with that, M'self.
Or the other one "we're not happy until you're not happy"
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 11:34
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Would appear that there are(is?) two industries, the one Aussie Bob and I operate in and the one the Sunfish et al operate in.
As an amateur with no criminal record, I can't take your observation on trust. There is sufficient evidence via the AAT, Norfolk island and the Forsyth review that suggests that you are in a privileged position.

If i had known when I started what I know now I would never have learned to fly, let alone decided to build an aircraft.
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 11:39
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Eddie and Aussie,

Once again, Sunfish has it nailed.

Sunfish (among other things, ex-Ansett engineering) and the rest of us operate in the real world of aviation, I have no idea what you two do. The "Twilight Zone" perhaps??

Maybe, if you are employed (self or otherwise) in the industry, you have had a charmed life. Or maybe it is too much wakkybakky, whatever, but something like 22 inquiries/Royal Commissions/etc. in 28 years, more or less uniformly critical, can't be all wrong??

Including the longest running Parliamentary inquiry since Federation.

Airworthiness-wise, we have, without question, the world's most prescriptive and inflexible, complex, convoluted and contradictory rules on the face of the planet --- and getting worse.

It is NOT "low labor costs" that have driven all but a small "political" residual of "Part 42/145" work offshore. Qantas didn't build the biggest hangar on KLAX just for somewhere to hang a Qantas sign.

CASR Part 61/141/142 has been a godsend --- for NZ/Canada/etc. as it has put AUSTRALIA out of the competition for airline pilot training, with a rump only remaining. As for lowly PPL training, that has been almost extinguished.

The small local town/country flying school has, as a common feature of a town, gone.

Fuel sales speak for themselves, increasingly, fuel availability is getting scarcer, an inevitable outcome of the fall-off in sales.

But you ain't seen nuttin yet!! Under the present "program" all the remaining rules will be made "in CASA's image", with not even lip service to cost, industry viability, and certainly not any kind of OBPR compliant process --- much less the slightest consideration for international harmonization.

Without going into detail, in the last couple of days, it has been brought home to me just how out of step Australia is, not only with NZ/US/Canada/EASA but every national authority (NAA) in our region.

To the crippling cost of the aviation sector in Australia.

Indeed, if I was setting up in the component overhaul business in AU, I wouldn't even bother with CASA, I would just set up under the FAA framework.

Over several decades of continuous economic expansion in Australia, what "modern technology based" sector has had anything like the contraction in aviation. Is there such a thing as a "continuous dis-improvement program"??

Tootle pip!!
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 11:54
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Eddie and Aussie,
Once again, Sunfish has it nailed.
Sunfish (among other things, ex-Ansett engineering) and the rest of us operate in the real world of aviation, I have no idea what you two do. The "Twilight Zone" perhaps??
Maybe, if you are employed (self or otherwise) in the industry, you have had a charmed life. Or maybe it is too much wakkybakky,
Yes mate, out here in the twilight zone, where CASA act exactly like I expect them to, with the odd drunken exception - them your Honour, not me (it's a very old joke).
I too have been to the AAT and applauded when they nailed some wenker trying to be a "bush" lawyer.
Who cares what Sunfish did 100 years ago in Ansett Engineering, if in fact he speaks truth, more like gaman manki, if you was to arks me.
Maybe you should stop trying to stir things up Lead sled, or is that Honda Gold Wing.
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 18:32
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There is a fundamental problem with your position Eddie Dean, negative evidence cannot be made into positive evidence.

Your position is "I'm all right mate! CASA has been OK with me! No bad experiences". You appear to never have had a problem. Neither have I. That is called negative evidence.

However there is plenty, bucket loads, of positive evidence that CASA and the regulations are dysfunctional. Start with the contents of Leadsleads 22 reviews and enquiries. People don't make this ^&%^ up. Read the Forsyth review. Look at what has happened with AVMED. Read the court and AAT reports.

Better still, go to places like NZ and watch what their GA sector is doing. In a morning at Milford Sound, I saw more GA activity then in a year where I live at the foot of the Australian Alps. CASA would probably even shut down the Milford sound strip as a safety hazard, given the runway approaches. The activity I saw there is just impossible under Australian regulations.

E.g Helicopter arrives,

- pilot leaves engine running, gets out and grabs baggage trolley (pax still inside).

- Out comes mum and rucksacks.

- Out comes Dad and two hunting dogs on leashes.

- Out comes the rifles.

- Out comes half a deer.

Pilot gets back in after unloading all this and taxis off.

Care to think how many Australian regulations that would have broken? Ever think about the poor bastard in Australia who lost his chief pilots job over a few missing entries in a fuel log?

What is the saddest thing is the stratospheric opportunity costs Australia has incurred thanks to dysfunctional Aviation regulation - the investment, growth and jobs that should have been happening in Australian GA but didn't because of our rotten system.

The GA sector is terminally sick, closure of country airports and declining fuel availability are just symptoms. Don't think that "I'm alright Jack" because you are part of the RAA or SAAA, CASA will come after you eventually.

Last edited by Sunfish; 30th Nov 2017 at 18:48.
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 19:28
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Honestly you firetruckers cant read or dont wont to believe. Get this into your thick heads. A hair lip awi tlds us approx 14 years ago Casa do not wont GA as they cant control it.
The country is turnging left wing. Its started already. Aviatin in europe is in the same state as here. The left wing side of things dont like aviation. Look at what the greens wont.
Not so long ago one of tne australian of the year quoted it wasnt going to rain. Victroia this morning is about to sell out of arks at bunnings.
Once again av med is on another level. Poeple acking as drs when they not. Not talking the real dr reports as real and making up their own reports.
U til there is fines and goal for these poeple you may as well try and sell up now.
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 21:23
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I know of at least 2 former CFI's who quit due to the pressure from mounting regulations and paperwork req'd to operate a small one pilot school, the responsibility put on the CFI, while a student was flying a short nav ex. Partly why I never returned to instructing.

Like Sunfish I too had this idea that it was all learning and helping, but quickly learnt the opposite, exactly as he describes.

I have days when I miss being involved but then again . . .
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Old 30th Nov 2017, 22:17
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I actually hear what you are saying Sunfish and Leadie but it is not just CASA it is the whole frikken country gone mad. It can take years and hundreds of thousands of dollars just to get permission build a house on your own land. We have a single political party masquerading as two differing mobs and we have do gooders everywhere spurned on by a controlled media. The average Aussie is too dumb to chew gum and pat their head simultaneously. They think that voting gives them a say in running the country. I don't see it changing in any hurry. Most are more than happy to accept an ever increasing level of bureaucracy and rules. Compliance and litigation are on everyone's lips except mine it seems. Everyone dons safety jackets just because they are told to.

Meanwhile down at the airport, the bloke who has wanted to fly since he was a kid and still does after 30 years in GA can still chuck the rule book in the corner and go flying and enjoy it.

Sunny, you have built an aeroplane, don't let the bastards get you down.
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Old 1st Dec 2017, 10:16
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Sunfish,
I really think your thread title is in error referring to CASA, the ba$tards NEVER forget the slightest infraction in my 50 years of dealing with them.
Nil carborundum illegitimi is the word!!!
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Old 2nd Dec 2017, 04:48
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Never in the history of human conflict has so much been paid to so few to do so little.
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Old 2nd Dec 2017, 11:43
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Man Bilong Balus long PNG
 
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Sunfish; Tried to pm you. Your in-box is full!!
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