Adani Coal Airport
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Adani are unlikely to mine any coal there. Think of Adani as an poorer Indian version of Enron. Behind all of the puff is not much substance, but there is a Himalayan (more cheap Indian puns) mountain of debt.
Adani needs to the coal mine to make the port (which they paid way too much for) financially viable. The debt in the port is due to roll over soon and given the port is underutilised and over-geared with debt, they have an uphill battle.
Adani need the prospect of the coal mine to sell the idea that port is financially viable to potential lenders.
Adani are making bull**** claims to all these different governments to try and wring cash out of them. Sounds like a couple of foolish councils fell for it.
I can't see the port being refinanced, meaning the banks will step in and sell it for 1/4 of what Adani paid. This will have the effect of bringing down the whole Adani group.
Remember the Indian fertiliser guy over in WA - well, you're going to see something similar here.
*** The science had been proven for twenty years - man-made climate change is real and a threat to our civilisation ***
Adani needs to the coal mine to make the port (which they paid way too much for) financially viable. The debt in the port is due to roll over soon and given the port is underutilised and over-geared with debt, they have an uphill battle.
Adani need the prospect of the coal mine to sell the idea that port is financially viable to potential lenders.
Adani are making bull**** claims to all these different governments to try and wring cash out of them. Sounds like a couple of foolish councils fell for it.
I can't see the port being refinanced, meaning the banks will step in and sell it for 1/4 of what Adani paid. This will have the effect of bringing down the whole Adani group.
Remember the Indian fertiliser guy over in WA - well, you're going to see something similar here.
*** The science had been proven for twenty years - man-made climate change is real and a threat to our civilisation ***
Taking the green argument out of it for a bit.
Our governments for many years have never been any good at doing deals (other than ones they personally gain from). Impex was not good for Darwin, not many local jobs were given - hotels normally tourists would stay at were being used by FIFO that would fly home to spend their cash or fly to Bali to do the same.
So now the cleaner gas that Australia wanted was all going offshore, I think Turnball government just did a deal to keep some here for our domestic use - I don't know at what cost to the tax payer.
Now there is the next thing "TAX" remember Julia and her mates did that tax deal with the mining companies and the Mineral Resources Rent Tax was born for Iron Ore and Coal miners. Only problem was it was the miners version we ended up with and that meant they paid less tax than the little they did before.
Now I have seen no improvement in the quality of our elected leaders for decades and there is a real concern, this mine regardless of if it should go ahead or not could have bad and expensive consequences for Australia and Australians.
Is there a clause that we have access to some of this clean coal for our own use? if so at what cost and when?
What are the items that will be classed as tax write downs and when?
What are the terms and conditions in relation to payments for the coal? Is it a fixed % of the international coal price? Does our clean coal have a higher floor price.
What are the environmental rehabilitation terms and who holds that money? India or Australia.
I would hate to see a large mine in Australia that keeps having to put up funds for various parts of the project essentially giving coal away (that provides power for around 100 million people) to support around 1,400 Australian jobs "related" to this mining operation. Adani claimed over 10,000 related jobs but that has been rejected.
On the face of it, it seems Adani are using the value of the coal that is in the ground as its main share of the investment. And want us to pay for its transport to the port and maybe beyond.
I think it needs a closer look, then if it leads to a few more aviation jobs - then great.
Maybe Adani could buy some houses in the towns around and do some daily fly in and out in a few King Airs or similar to spread some of the $ billions, some of those towns near by need the support.
Our governments for many years have never been any good at doing deals (other than ones they personally gain from). Impex was not good for Darwin, not many local jobs were given - hotels normally tourists would stay at were being used by FIFO that would fly home to spend their cash or fly to Bali to do the same.
So now the cleaner gas that Australia wanted was all going offshore, I think Turnball government just did a deal to keep some here for our domestic use - I don't know at what cost to the tax payer.
Now there is the next thing "TAX" remember Julia and her mates did that tax deal with the mining companies and the Mineral Resources Rent Tax was born for Iron Ore and Coal miners. Only problem was it was the miners version we ended up with and that meant they paid less tax than the little they did before.
Now I have seen no improvement in the quality of our elected leaders for decades and there is a real concern, this mine regardless of if it should go ahead or not could have bad and expensive consequences for Australia and Australians.
Is there a clause that we have access to some of this clean coal for our own use? if so at what cost and when?
What are the items that will be classed as tax write downs and when?
What are the terms and conditions in relation to payments for the coal? Is it a fixed % of the international coal price? Does our clean coal have a higher floor price.
What are the environmental rehabilitation terms and who holds that money? India or Australia.
I would hate to see a large mine in Australia that keeps having to put up funds for various parts of the project essentially giving coal away (that provides power for around 100 million people) to support around 1,400 Australian jobs "related" to this mining operation. Adani claimed over 10,000 related jobs but that has been rejected.
On the face of it, it seems Adani are using the value of the coal that is in the ground as its main share of the investment. And want us to pay for its transport to the port and maybe beyond.
I think it needs a closer look, then if it leads to a few more aviation jobs - then great.
Maybe Adani could buy some houses in the towns around and do some daily fly in and out in a few King Airs or similar to spread some of the $ billions, some of those towns near by need the support.
*** The science had been proven for twenty years - man-made climate change is real and a threat to our civilisation ***
At the same time China keeps building more coal fired power stations to be fuelled by Australian coal. They then use this cheap energy to sell us unreliable solar and wind generators.
Ironic isn't it....
Last edited by mikewil; 31st Oct 2017 at 06:30.
Thread Starter
Adani are unlikely to mine any coal there. Think of Adani as an poorer Indian version of Enron. Behind all of the puff is not much substance, but there is a Himalayan (more cheap Indian puns) mountain of debt.
Adani needs to the coal mine to make the port (which they paid way too much for) financially viable. The debt in the port is due to roll over soon and given the port is underutilised and over-geared with debt, they have an uphill battle.
Adani need the prospect of the coal mine to sell the idea that port is financially viable to potential lenders.
Adani are making bull**** claims to all these different governments to try and wring cash out of them. Sounds like a couple of foolish councils fell for it.
I can't see the port being refinanced, meaning the banks will step in and sell it for 1/4 of what Adani paid. This will have the effect of bringing down the whole Adani group.
Remember the Indian fertiliser guy over in WA - well, you're going to see something similar here.
Adani needs to the coal mine to make the port (which they paid way too much for) financially viable. The debt in the port is due to roll over soon and given the port is underutilised and over-geared with debt, they have an uphill battle.
Adani need the prospect of the coal mine to sell the idea that port is financially viable to potential lenders.
Adani are making bull**** claims to all these different governments to try and wring cash out of them. Sounds like a couple of foolish councils fell for it.
I can't see the port being refinanced, meaning the banks will step in and sell it for 1/4 of what Adani paid. This will have the effect of bringing down the whole Adani group.
Remember the Indian fertiliser guy over in WA - well, you're going to see something similar here.
Oh, and if we Australians via our coal exports help 250 Million Indians currently with-out power get cheap reliable power for the first time, then I will sleep better at night..
.
the 250 million without power. can't afford it at any price. once Adani has suckered the government, the asks will continue and get bigger. If the deal cannot go ahead on normal commercial terms, its a crock. You ever seen what a festering toxic mess an abandoned coal mine looks like?
to put that another way,coal in any case is a commodity. unless adani can demonstrate a compelling value proposition for the project (ie revenue covers remediation, borrowing costs, taxes, royalties, operating costs, native title, infrastructure, depreciation, first world wages and OH&S and of course profit - all with a robust sensitivity analysis to lower coal prices) then the project must not go ahead or we, the taxpayer, will be left holding the bag at some stage. Adani cannot do this - hence no lenders to Adani!
my opinion is that adani are playing us for suckers and will package the project and on sell it if we give them money and tax holidays.
i have had deals like this pitched to me before. Adani smells to high heaven. Rio, BHP and other reputable miners would have already built the project if it made economic sense.
to put that another way,coal in any case is a commodity. unless adani can demonstrate a compelling value proposition for the project (ie revenue covers remediation, borrowing costs, taxes, royalties, operating costs, native title, infrastructure, depreciation, first world wages and OH&S and of course profit - all with a robust sensitivity analysis to lower coal prices) then the project must not go ahead or we, the taxpayer, will be left holding the bag at some stage. Adani cannot do this - hence no lenders to Adani!
my opinion is that adani are playing us for suckers and will package the project and on sell it if we give them money and tax holidays.
i have had deals like this pitched to me before. Adani smells to high heaven. Rio, BHP and other reputable miners would have already built the project if it made economic sense.
Last edited by Sunfish; 31st Oct 2017 at 20:54.
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Binghi said:-
Adani's Carmichael mine is low quality coal. It will add significantly to the greenhouse gas overload already in the earths atmosphere. All it will do is make India's poor sick as well as poor for no gain as they won't be able to afford the electricity. (A bit like here but for different reasons. Here it's unaffordable because governments give monopolies to assholes)
Why the hell we follow scammers with grandiose get rich schemes defies logic. Our track record is not great with millions being lost to notables such as Bond, Skase and currently Clive Palmer. Methinks it won't be long before Adani becomes known as 'Clive of India'
I cannot understand why all parties are selling their souls for such a pissy number of jobs. To put things in perspective consider this. The average number jobs Adani will offer (if he doesn't go broke first) is under 1,500. In one smelly brain fart Campbell Newman sacked 14,000 workers. It is hard to follow the logic that the world will end if we don't allow 1,500 workers to pollute the world but it's just a shrug of the shoulders to sack 14,000 Government workers.
I know little of the Adani coal Co. Though I do know that it is coal that will be mined and that there are many new coal power stations being built around the world that will need our high quality coal.
Why the hell we follow scammers with grandiose get rich schemes defies logic. Our track record is not great with millions being lost to notables such as Bond, Skase and currently Clive Palmer. Methinks it won't be long before Adani becomes known as 'Clive of India'
I cannot understand why all parties are selling their souls for such a pissy number of jobs. To put things in perspective consider this. The average number jobs Adani will offer (if he doesn't go broke first) is under 1,500. In one smelly brain fart Campbell Newman sacked 14,000 workers. It is hard to follow the logic that the world will end if we don't allow 1,500 workers to pollute the world but it's just a shrug of the shoulders to sack 14,000 Government workers.
Peterc005,
But what happened the day/week/month after, when the wind stopped blowing for a while --- ???
Did you see the pictures of the totally destroyed solar farms in Jamaica??
Do you understand what is meant by dispatchable power ---- the reason modern coal fired power stations are being built in Germany??
Do you understand how much of Germany's power is coming from French nuclear, since Greens politics shut down nuclear in Germany? Which, silly though it is, is why "coal" is replacing nuclear, to a degree. in Germany??
Tootle pip!!
PS: Regardless of the fate of Adani, in my view opening up north Queensland is a good move, Queensland quite accidentally is already the most decentralised state, the "subsidised" railway line will be open to all traffic, avoiding the WA type fights over access to company owned lines.
But what happened the day/week/month after, when the wind stopped blowing for a while --- ???
Did you see the pictures of the totally destroyed solar farms in Jamaica??
Do you understand what is meant by dispatchable power ---- the reason modern coal fired power stations are being built in Germany??
Do you understand how much of Germany's power is coming from French nuclear, since Greens politics shut down nuclear in Germany? Which, silly though it is, is why "coal" is replacing nuclear, to a degree. in Germany??
Tootle pip!!
PS: Regardless of the fate of Adani, in my view opening up north Queensland is a good move, Queensland quite accidentally is already the most decentralised state, the "subsidised" railway line will be open to all traffic, avoiding the WA type fights over access to company owned lines.
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Man-made climate change is proven science. Renewable energy is the future.
Captain Cook seemed to make it out here ok without the need to strap an outboard motor behind HMS Endeavour.
At least you are correct about one thing, I guess you have to be right occasionally, outboard motors didn't come until a little after 1770.
Thus the need, from time to time, of a long rope, a longboat, and a bunch of sailors on the (inboard) end of the oars.
Or you ran aground, Cape Tribulation was not a random name, nor is Cooktown at the mouth of the Endeavour River.
And, "the science" is never settled, the sum total of human knowledge is never static, and if you had any knowledge of the history of the earth, of geology, and the real history of climate change, you would know that the climate had changed constantly in the course of both human recorded and geological history.
Up until about 30 years ago, the "science was settled" that we were headed for another ice age. Not all that long ago, the "science was settled" that witchcraft was the biggest threat to civilisation, thousands of women (always women) were killed as witches to "save" civilisation.
Does this suggest anything to you?? Do you understand the earth conditions that gave rise to what is now coal (or diamonds), or why Greenland is called Greenland??
The real question is: What current climate change is there, and how much of it is in response to the activities of the human population, how much of it is beyond our control. Considering the views of one of the greatest scientific minds of our times, Freeman Dyson, is well worth the effort.
He certainly does not agree the "science is settled".
One thing that the group that you seem to support agree about, based on their "models" ** is:
If all the "Paris" 2050 emissions reductions are achieved, the 2050 temperature increase will be reduced by approximately 0.01 (one tenth) of a degree Celsius, +/- 0.01 degree --- or put more simply, somewhere between zero and sod all.
AND nothing Australia does will make any measurable difference, including stopping coal exports.
Tootle pip!!
** Modelling: A process developed to make astrology look good and sound plausible.
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Since when has a pilot/aircrew etc forum need to be a forum to discuss the merits of coal mines and power stations?
hydrogen car testing in Australia
Another interesting area to look around with your search engine
Nikola 1000 hp truck
Since when has a pilot/aircrew etc forum need to be a forum to discuss the merits of coal mines and power stations?
So, moving along and getting back on track we get this bit on ABC news today: Council Under fire for Pumping 19M into airport
I will let you draw your own conclusions but the comments under the article seem to point to a common opinion. If I was a constituent of any of these Councillors I would be organising a revolt!
I assume this mine in question never had any flights of aerial survey, FIFO over the last around 15 years has never been a interest to any aviation company - so no new aircraft or routes have happened due a coal mine or any other mine.
Power stations on the other hand use aircraft daily at the stations, but never on delivery hardware on mapping or ongoing cleaning.
The merit if missed is the FIFO a new airport and increased traffic at 2 current airports in QLD + the feed to those 2 airports.
The debate is can, will and should it happen and who be the end payer/s.
The cost so far to Joe Blogs is I think $30,000,000 (my opinion that wont cover the cost of the road to the airport) for a airport at the new mine. Now will this be a RPT airport? if so that's a lot extra government funds on an ongoing basis. What upgrades will be needed at the 2 other airports?
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Thank God there is no coal around Shepparton or our Councillors would be rushing in to contribute. They are hell bent on getting rid of the existing GA facility and building something BIG for large jets.
They seem to believe in the Cargo Cult phenomena expecting State and Federal money to pay for the new aerodrome while they sell off their 300 acres for more housing. And somehow there will suddenly be an amazing demand for heavy air cargo to justify the new one.
If they had used their brains (hard to imagine) they would have planned for housing developments to the west of Mooroopna and pursued a twin city model instead of allowing subdivisions right up yo the existing airfield boundary. They also would have taken the opportunity to lengthen the main runway and extend the cross strip before any nearby development occurred.
Someone needs to tell them they're dreaming.
Kaz
PS but they are going to start charging landing fees from 1 January to raise some money for the move...or prove that no one is using the existing facility.
They seem to believe in the Cargo Cult phenomena expecting State and Federal money to pay for the new aerodrome while they sell off their 300 acres for more housing. And somehow there will suddenly be an amazing demand for heavy air cargo to justify the new one.
If they had used their brains (hard to imagine) they would have planned for housing developments to the west of Mooroopna and pursued a twin city model instead of allowing subdivisions right up yo the existing airfield boundary. They also would have taken the opportunity to lengthen the main runway and extend the cross strip before any nearby development occurred.
Someone needs to tell them they're dreaming.
Kaz
PS but they are going to start charging landing fees from 1 January to raise some money for the move...or prove that no one is using the existing facility.
As usual, All abuse, No substance..
Captain Cook seemed to make it out here ok without the need to strap an outboard motor behind HMS Endeavour.
I mean, it still takes the same amount of time to clean the house now as it did 50 years ago...People are spending less time socialising with their neighbours and kids are glued to the Xbox instead of finding some neighbourhood kids to befriend to go exploring with, or play cricket with, or shanghai a few streetlights with.