Adani Coal Airport
----- they have cleaned up their act and canned coal power stations left right and centre.
It is quite correct that P.R.China is getting rid of "old technology" coal fired power stations, and their attendant output of solid pollutants, as well as various gasses.
However, they are being replaced, in terms of capacity, by about 2:1 with latest tec. coal fired, with about a 40% less CO2 output per Kw/H. The planned percentage of the total, from coal, is planned to increase. The total coal consumption is planned to increase.
In terms of numbers, 299 new coal fire power stations are the last numbers I saw, and I have personally been to one site, all coal, which has a greater output than all the coal fired generators in Australia, combined.
It is cunningly top secret, hidden from Greens gaze on Google Earth, Wuwei, north west China. But don't let on I told you.
Net, P.R.China is increasing coal fired output, as it is increasing nuclear generation, and renewable, all sources, or, put another way, P.R.China is massively increasing output from all sources, with 100% "dispatchable" reliability a given in the planning and execution.
P.R.China has no plans to play Russian roulette with industry and commerce over reliable and affordable power supplies.
P.R.China's "commitment to Paris" is precisely zero, nil, naught until 2030, then a "promise" to reconsider.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Given the massive research programs, I would not be surprised if P.R.China cracks "fusion" and builds the first industrial scale fusion reactor generation, likewise the first practical thorium reactor generators.
Last edited by LeadSled; 24th Nov 2017 at 06:46.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With fusion power and better electricity storage or hydrogen storage our energy and climate issues will be solved.
Then we could get back to killing each other in a civilised fashion!
Then we could get back to killing each other in a civilised fashion!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fusion or any other clean energy source coupled with storage is the only way to go.
The extract below from today's ABC news is interesting.
I wonder what spin Mr Adani will use when he tells the average Indian that he represents BIG COAL and he is here to kill you.
(Probably he is in contact with BIG TOBACCO for a few tips.)
The health effects of New Delhi's toxic air were demonstrable this week.
Smog forced the temporary halt of a Test match between India and Sri Lanka, with several players running off the field to vomit, an incident some labelled a shameful wake-up call.
But don't expect urgent action — it may be killing them, but few Delhi residents see the problem.
"Pollution level is very low today," Vishal, a 20-year-old student on his way to to watch the final day's cricket on Wednesday, said.
The quantity of toxic particles in New Delhi's air was 13 times the World Health Organisation's 'safe' level.
Air pollution like smoking '10 to 15 cigarettes a day'
An October Lancet foundation report found that a staggering 2.5 million Indians died premature, pollution-related deaths in 2015 — the most of any nation worldwide.
Another recent report found a high correlation between air pollution and babies being born underweight and underdeveloped.
Dr Arvind Kumar, a lung specialist at New Delhi's Ganga Ram hospital, is firm in his belief something needs to change.
"Every citizen of the city of Delhi in the last year has smoked 10 to 15 cigarettes per day," Dr Kumar said.
"Its a serious issue and there is no way we can afford to ignore it any longer."
The useless Galilee Basin airport proposal is looking less and less likely along with the Adani coal mine. Chinese loans gone. Ex Rockhampton Mayor Strewlow and donor of other peoples money to dud projects - gone. Government subsidies for rail links - gone. How much longer before Mr Adani abandons his dirty dodgy project and goes back to India to enjoy a short life breathing the toxic pollutants his coal burning is already producing?
The extract below from today's ABC news is interesting.
I wonder what spin Mr Adani will use when he tells the average Indian that he represents BIG COAL and he is here to kill you.
(Probably he is in contact with BIG TOBACCO for a few tips.)
The health effects of New Delhi's toxic air were demonstrable this week.
Smog forced the temporary halt of a Test match between India and Sri Lanka, with several players running off the field to vomit, an incident some labelled a shameful wake-up call.
But don't expect urgent action — it may be killing them, but few Delhi residents see the problem.
"Pollution level is very low today," Vishal, a 20-year-old student on his way to to watch the final day's cricket on Wednesday, said.
The quantity of toxic particles in New Delhi's air was 13 times the World Health Organisation's 'safe' level.
"So yes it's a problem, but not really a problem," Vishal concluded.
Even more startling is a common belief that Delhiites are somehow tough, adapted, inured even to the harmful air they breathe.Air pollution like smoking '10 to 15 cigarettes a day'
An October Lancet foundation report found that a staggering 2.5 million Indians died premature, pollution-related deaths in 2015 — the most of any nation worldwide.
Another recent report found a high correlation between air pollution and babies being born underweight and underdeveloped.
Dr Arvind Kumar, a lung specialist at New Delhi's Ganga Ram hospital, is firm in his belief something needs to change.
"Every citizen of the city of Delhi in the last year has smoked 10 to 15 cigarettes per day," Dr Kumar said.
"Its a serious issue and there is no way we can afford to ignore it any longer."
The useless Galilee Basin airport proposal is looking less and less likely along with the Adani coal mine. Chinese loans gone. Ex Rockhampton Mayor Strewlow and donor of other peoples money to dud projects - gone. Government subsidies for rail links - gone. How much longer before Mr Adani abandons his dirty dodgy project and goes back to India to enjoy a short life breathing the toxic pollutants his coal burning is already producing?
....and all this pollution is coal related emissions?
I can bet that power generation or even domestic coal burning isn't THE major source of pollution in Delhi. You'd be surprised to learn the major pollutant is dust!
I can bet that power generation or even domestic coal burning isn't THE major source of pollution in Delhi. You'd be surprised to learn the major pollutant is dust!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The quote below is a typical example of many that can be found describing the air quality in Delhi. Surely it makes no sense to add more coal pollution to a bad situation when building new power infrastructure especially when renewables are now cheaper.
You might also note the quote doesn't even mention greenhouse gasses probably because they are more worried about their immediate problem of breathing toxic air than future climate change.
You might also note the quote doesn't even mention greenhouse gasses probably because they are more worried about their immediate problem of breathing toxic air than future climate change.
The air quality index touched the “severe” category in the first week of November, hitting 448 on a scale of 500 for the second time this year.
The root cause of the smog, which fills the corridors of Delhi without fail every winter, is yet to be tackled. Several studies and government committees have highlighted that burning coal, petrol, diesel, gas, biomass and waste, along with industries, power plants, and firecrackers are major contributors of pollution.
The root cause of the smog, which fills the corridors of Delhi without fail every winter, is yet to be tackled. Several studies and government committees have highlighted that burning coal, petrol, diesel, gas, biomass and waste, along with industries, power plants, and firecrackers are major contributors of pollution.
Never been there, and never want to. But I did read one report that a major contributor to the pollution at this time of the year is the nearby farmers burning their old crop stubbles in preparation for planting the new crops. The ABC seems to have forgotten to mention that. I wonder why?
I operate into India several times each year. The overwhelming aroma on these occasions is wood/plant material smoke with a hint of what seems to be old mattresses. The China coal smell is different, and not as bad as it was a couple of decades ago, probably due to building efficient coal burners, and of course, nuclear power, which Australia could have abundantly and cheaply.
The global warming scam is becoming unravelled, with its zealots grasping at straws to continue the narrative. The earth has not appreciably warmed in accordance with the ‘models’ and sea levels have not risen. For example:
http://joannenova.com.au/2017/12/ris...ments-not-co2/
Even if they had, windmills and giant batteries would make SFA difference (except to the taxpayer-subsidised providers’ wallets). But there is always Green pixie dust. Perth still has water, Victoria’s desal plant has never been used and the polar bears are doing well.
Cheap and reliable coal and oil power provided energy that, inter alia, lifted millions out of poverty, saved the forests from being stripped for wood burning, stopped the harvesting of whales for their oil, and got man to the moon and our machines to the outer planets.
Australia is on a slippery slope toward widespread energy poverty, uncompetitive industry, shivering pensioners and becoming a global laughing stock (as South Australia already is).
The global warming scam is becoming unravelled, with its zealots grasping at straws to continue the narrative. The earth has not appreciably warmed in accordance with the ‘models’ and sea levels have not risen. For example:
http://joannenova.com.au/2017/12/ris...ments-not-co2/
Even if they had, windmills and giant batteries would make SFA difference (except to the taxpayer-subsidised providers’ wallets). But there is always Green pixie dust. Perth still has water, Victoria’s desal plant has never been used and the polar bears are doing well.
Cheap and reliable coal and oil power provided energy that, inter alia, lifted millions out of poverty, saved the forests from being stripped for wood burning, stopped the harvesting of whales for their oil, and got man to the moon and our machines to the outer planets.
Australia is on a slippery slope toward widespread energy poverty, uncompetitive industry, shivering pensioners and becoming a global laughing stock (as South Australia already is).
Last edited by Captain Dart; 10th Dec 2017 at 07:57.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bolthead says:
Because Australian/Indian companies are not trying to export stubble....YET. The ABC is trying to stop Australia ADDING to the problem.
Captain Dart says:
The only laughing stock are the silly old moos that that think any of the claptrap above is true. They think the way forward is by looking backwards.
When I was very young in the early 50s the last of the die hard farmers in our district still used horses for ploughing. To a man they were dirt poor. The ones with vision borrowed and bought those noisy work of the devil diesel tractors and became rich.
The next generation to become rich will be those that embrace clean energy and ignore the doomsayers that spread baseless BS and are too lazy to even try to understand what scientists and engineers are showing us to be true.
We only have shivering pensioners because the trickle down tricksters we have as politicians think it better to give billion dollar companies a $50 billion tax reduction over the next 10 years than to give our pensioners a decent standard of living.
But I did read one report that a major contributor to the pollution at this time of the year is the nearby farmers burning their old crop stubbles in preparation for planting the new crops. The ABC seems to have forgotten to mention that. I wonder why?
Captain Dart says:
Australia is on a slippery slope toward widespread energy poverty, uncompetitive industry, shivering pensioners and becoming a global laughing stock (as South Australia already is).
When I was very young in the early 50s the last of the die hard farmers in our district still used horses for ploughing. To a man they were dirt poor. The ones with vision borrowed and bought those noisy work of the devil diesel tractors and became rich.
The next generation to become rich will be those that embrace clean energy and ignore the doomsayers that spread baseless BS and are too lazy to even try to understand what scientists and engineers are showing us to be true.
shivering pensioners
The ones with vision borrowed and bought those noisy work of the devil diesel tractors and became rich.
The next generation to become rich will be those that embrace clean energy and ignore the doomsayers that spread baseless BS and are too lazy to even try to understand what scientists and engineers are showing us to be true.
The next generation to become rich will be those that embrace clean energy and ignore the doomsayers that spread baseless BS and are too lazy to even try to understand what scientists and engineers are showing us to be true.
I want to become a rich farmer, but my father (who bought a devil diesel tractor) went broke and we lost the farm. (One heck of a sweeping statement there, Rutan)
We have the capacity in Oz to mine the uranium, get some foreigner to build a Special Aussie Noocleah Power Station, for only 5 times the price of an off-the-shelf job, and we are able to store the waste in a hole in South Australia. It will glow for 30,000 years, solving their power shortage by providing light. Simples. Schtcch!
If this were true, there wouldn't be any need to have the green brigade constantly pushing their anti-coal agenda. New renewable sources would be springing up without the need for government subsidies or encouragement - simple economics.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain Dart the web site you referenced states that 42,000 households struggle to pay electricity and gas bills. 42,000 households represent one half of one percent of Australian households. That's hardly the slippery slope you fret about and besides if pensions and basic wages had only kept up with inflation most of the problem wouldn't exist.
Charlie says
Charlie if you don't understand how wind could power your tractor you shouldn't comment. I'll save you some research time.
wind > turbine > electricity > hydrogen or batteries
I can't comment on your farm loss because I don't know the circumstances but I can say there are vanishingly few farmers using horses for ploughing today. Even some of the Amish people are now using tractors.
Forget fission nuclear. It's much more expensive than renewables, it's fuel is finite and it's waste is dangerous for thousands of years. Imagine the carnage if some demented Ag-pilot got hold of a few 200 litre drums of plutonium waste and sprayed it over Canberra......... er sorry. Bad example of a bad thing.
Mikewil says:
They are needed to rebuff the less than truthful propaganda put out by the coal lobby who don't care what their product costs in terms of money or lives.
Mikewil also says:
Renewable resources are growing all the time in spite of government stupidity. Just today the owners of Liddell power station told the PM to go forth and multiply. They're going to close it down as planned and replace it with renewable power. Unlike the PM they have skin in the game and wouldn't chose renewables if they weren't the best way forward.
Mikewil you also ignore the fact that every coal fired power station in Australia was built with government money. Why are you now so against subsidies? It appears to be woolly thinking.
Charlie says
I have been trying to buy a wind-powered tractor but the Chinese refuse to sell me one.
wind > turbine > electricity > hydrogen or batteries
I can't comment on your farm loss because I don't know the circumstances but I can say there are vanishingly few farmers using horses for ploughing today. Even some of the Amish people are now using tractors.
Forget fission nuclear. It's much more expensive than renewables, it's fuel is finite and it's waste is dangerous for thousands of years. Imagine the carnage if some demented Ag-pilot got hold of a few 200 litre drums of plutonium waste and sprayed it over Canberra......... er sorry. Bad example of a bad thing.
Mikewil says:
If this were true, there wouldn't be any need to have the green brigade constantly pushing their anti-coal agenda.
Mikewil also says:
New renewable sources would be springing up without the need for government subsidies or encouragement - simple economics.
Mikewil you also ignore the fact that every coal fired power station in Australia was built with government money. Why are you now so against subsidies? It appears to be woolly thinking.
But were not those coal fired power stations built with government money owned by the government at the time ie. the state electricity commissions? So not really subsidised, just part of the times when the people owned the infrastructure, so the people were just getting some of their investment back. But, they were sold off to the private sector eventually, but now the subsidies go directly to the private sector, lining the pockets of the shareholders at public expense. Throw in turmoil about the direction of government policy that will dictate what source of power will be politically acceptable and it's no wonder they are looking at green power. There's much more money to be made out of it, and that's all private companies are interested in.
every coal fired power station in Australia was built with government money.
So AGL is going to invest in power production that is not base load. This means that they can come into the market when power is in short supply and charge whatever the market will bear.
To replace Liddell, they are going to have either a large gas fired station or massive PV/wind and a very large storage system, not a piddling little system that has recently been installed in SA.
The deficiency with Liddell closing is 1000MW. Liddell could produce this day in and day out. Even on cloudy windless days.
How big will PV/wind production facilities and the storage system be?
How long would the storage supply last for and at what rate?
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Goolwa
Age: 59
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With power there are essentially two types, the base or "constant" source and the variable source. Gas, coal, hydro, nuclear etc. are considered the constant source (not infinite, but accessible at all times) and wind and solar are variable sources. I have lived off grid for 15 years which would not have been possible without batteries (our constant source) because for some reason the sun doesn't shine 24 hours a day and the wind doesn't blow all the time.
For every cost analysis of renewable energy it MUST take into account the base source, be it batteries, hot salts, gas, coal, nuclear etc. A wind or solar farm may be cheaper to erect than a nuclear plant BUT what is going to be used for a constant source? Solar with batteries (lithium, lead carbon etc) is going for about 50c per KwH for a small system, which is still above even the SA price of 40c/KwH. In all the media about renewables being cheaper and better they all conveniently skip or gloss over the base load or constant source - this is the problem that needs to be solved first and now. Maybe 10 years in the future we will have cheap affective storage, but we do not have it now!
For every cost analysis of renewable energy it MUST take into account the base source, be it batteries, hot salts, gas, coal, nuclear etc. A wind or solar farm may be cheaper to erect than a nuclear plant BUT what is going to be used for a constant source? Solar with batteries (lithium, lead carbon etc) is going for about 50c per KwH for a small system, which is still above even the SA price of 40c/KwH. In all the media about renewables being cheaper and better they all conveniently skip or gloss over the base load or constant source - this is the problem that needs to be solved first and now. Maybe 10 years in the future we will have cheap affective storage, but we do not have it now!
they all conveniently skip or gloss over the base load or constant source - this is the problem that needs to be solved first and now.
The requirement for storage is conveniently forgotten by the commentators.
So what period of supply does a storage system attached to PV/Wind need to cover.
The period of supply for a coal/gas power station is the life of the station or coal/gas source.
The period of supply for storage attached to a PV/Wind source is? minutes - hours - days. Certainly not weeks or months.
I know from personal experience, that PV can have periods where the output can be less that 10% for a period of days. Get a week of rain and you would be stuffed.
So what would be the cost to build a storage system to store the equivalent power output of Liddell for at least 7 days?
How big would the PV/Wind supply need to be to supply enough power for the normal consumption while recharging the storage system within a reasonable time.
Last edited by 601; 11th Dec 2017 at 23:02.