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NT C210

Old 25th Oct 2017, 22:12
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Compressor Stall

In my my time belting around the NT and Arnhem Land in a 210, I usually stayed low late in the day in the buildup. Except for the escarpment there's not much to hit and except in really monsoonal trough times, the clouds are not normally on the ground. If they are, then you don't want to be anywhere near it anyway down low or up high.
Was it you that stole my Northern Territory SOP manual?
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Old 26th Oct 2017, 00:21
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Airspeed is not too difficult to control in a C210 with basic attitude flying. The references to people exceeding Vne are likely to have occurred when they got the nose down attempting to descend out of cloud, or attempting to proritise and maintain altitude, rather than prioritise Va. You need Va to be able to get roll angles back to zero asap because 60 deg + will happen (too) rapidly.
Descending per se to escape also potentially puts them at LSALT but still IMC with little ability to control altitude in turbulence and also exposes them to being caught there inside a rain core which can drag its surrounding air mass down with it at > -1000 fpm.
A constant power setting / constant attitude to maintain Va, and accepting loss of control over altitude is a lot safer, since the big black cloud's performance inputs in either direction are going to happen a lot faster than yours.
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Old 26th Oct 2017, 00:22
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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And this one from 1976 in fine weather.
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Old 26th Oct 2017, 06:36
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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That report, Capt Fathom, should be pinned to every C210 operator's lunchroom wall.

You can have all the SMS touchy feely group hug TEM you like, but a blunt factual report like that hits a pilot right between the eyes.
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Old 26th Oct 2017, 11:56
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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The RAAF to my knowledge has lost at least six aircraft (Winjeels. Macchis and Sabres) when these unusual combinations have occurred
I don't recall any of these accidents although I instructed on Wirraways and Winjeels. However I do recall a Wirraway crash at the Werribee bombing range circa 1957. The pilot was Flight Sergeant Ted Dillon who was practicing solo dive-bombing in the Wirraway. All RAAF pilots were aware of the dangers of rolling "G" as we were briefed on that early in our flying training.

The briefing for dive-bombing at the time was once the bomb was dropped from a 45 degree angle of dive the pilot should pull out of the dive wings level and climb straight ahead to about 1000 feet before levelling out and flying a left circuit to position for another dive. In his accident the pilot dropped his bomb as briefed then made a strong pull out and at the same time banked the aircraft sharply to rejoin the pattern.

One wing departed the aircraft and the Wirraway crashed killing the pilot. The Court of Inquiry revealed a possible defect in that wing which would have weakened the attachment. It was felt that combined with the rolling "G" the defect caused the wing to break at a lower "G". I recall vaguely the Wirraway had very strong wings able to withstand +8G but am not certain if that was true.
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Old 26th Oct 2017, 12:00
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
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C210 report

Funny enough there's at least one pilot by the name of Kaddatz in the Australian aviation industry still
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Old 26th Oct 2017, 12:45
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom View Post
And this one from 1976 in fine weather.
I remember this accident well. I had some C210 experience at the time - and a lot more after.

Its always seemed to me that if the C210 is as vunerable as this report suggests there would be more similar clear air 210 wing failures - which doesn't seem to be the case.

I think there is more to it than this report indicates.

Dr
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Old 26th Oct 2017, 23:30
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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The final result will be interesting...

The Territory an unforgiving place for both new and old. Remember the Aerostar that had a wing separate in flight down near Port Keats, similar place to where a 210 also came to grief in a thunderie. Not to mention the lucky twisted conquest....

Experience can’t be bought, it’s a tough world out there.

Those of us that cut our teeth way back when appreciate every accident and feel for this young fella, every accident hits home. We all know of our close calls.

Now what is even most interesting is the aircraft flying around now are pretty much the same that we’re fkying around then, oh but plus 10-20,000 hours!

Rest In Peace young fella.

Last edited by Global Aviator; 26th Oct 2017 at 23:43.
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 00:21
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone have details about the Aerostar accident Global Aviator refers to? The "lucky twisted conquest".......would be KUZ
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 00:59
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone have details about the Aerostar accident Global Aviator refers to?
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...aair200003949/
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 01:44
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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While there have been many C210 crashes in the Territory and many weather related aircraft crashes and incidents, I think bringing up the Aerostar accident is a bit of a low blow on this thread.

Pretty sure that Aerostar was a LAME's father and many are of the opinion it was a medical issue but that could not be confirmed or denied.
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 03:36
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Told today that the wings failed approximately 1 meter each side from the wing root. If this is the case ill let you draw your on conclusions to why they failure in this area.
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 07:20
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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There really is not any problems with 210 wings if flown correctly. As with most failures is the fact you dont know what the guy before you done or the guy 5 weeks earlier or 2 hyears earlier that sets the plan in motion.
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 07:30
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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The Albury 210 was VH-IOR, a 210R http://https://www.atsb.gov.au/publi...aair199801415/
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 09:46
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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You have to ask in these type of circumstances where airframe failure has occurred, maybe over-controlling in turbulence leads to airframe disruption.
I recall two Aero Commander fatal accidents where this may have the cause. One was north of Melbourne where severe turbulence was forecast below 10,000 ft. The other was in Tasmania. Investigations revealed these aircraft broke apart in flight. But whether pilot input was involved could not be determined.
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Old 27th Oct 2017, 13:08
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Bend a lot - no low blow intended, just pointing out past incident, yes was very sad but take the emotion out. There are many factors in each incident.

The Territory a tough place to fly, I’d fly with any pilot that cut their teeth - 210, Baron, 402, airlines or regionals, great experience. Unfortunately it has also claimed many a life along the way.

I can think of many incidents but all of them would rip into the heart of someone effected so no point. However we all do learn from the past and plenty of newbies will be reading this thread and if it saves just one....

As for tools now available, yes use anything available as CS says much better than the ADF... Ahh the ole days pre GPS and the Mach 1 eyeball.

As I said at the start of this reply offending anyone was the last intent.
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Old 28th Oct 2017, 09:56
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Global Aviator View Post
Bend a lot - no low blow intended, just pointing out past incident, yes was very sad but take the emotion out. There are many factors in each incident.

The Territory a tough place to fly, Iíd fly with any pilot that cut their teeth - 210, Baron, 402, airlines or regionals, great experience. Unfortunately it has also claimed many a life along the way.

I can think of many incidents but all of them would rip into the heart of someone effected so no point. However we all do learn from the past and plenty of newbies will be reading this thread and if it saves just one....

As for tools now available, yes use anything available as CS says much better than the ADF... Ahh the ole days pre GPS and the Mach 1 eyeball.

As I said at the start of this reply offending anyone was the last intent.
Thatís a bloody fast eyeball, Global.
Mark my words.........
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Old 30th Oct 2017, 13:26
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Yes true a very fast eyeball, better than the mark I eyeball I believe..........

Thanks for the private message bendy, however I cannot send you a PM on here as it says you've chosen not to receive?

Bloody bad week for Aussie GA as has been said in other posts.
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Old 31st Oct 2017, 09:33
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=Global Aviator;9941270]

Thanks for the private message bendy, however I cannot send you a PM on here as it says you've chosen not to receive?

QUOTE]



Don't think I chose that, also don't see any option to change that - might be a probation thing?
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Old 1st Nov 2017, 00:37
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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"Weather definitely seems to be relevant. LiveATC recording has him requesting initally 5 miles left and right, of which only 5nm right was granted due to restricted airspace. The approach controller later gave him 10nm right, and at some point offered "alternative routing", so the aircraft was definitely trying to avoid something"

Was discussing this sad event with my brother. He is now a B777 pilot but learnt his trade flying 210's, Baron's etc in NT for years. One comment he made was that if confronted with a hairy weather situation he would not ASK for an ATC clearance but TELL ATC what he had to do as appropriate for the conditions he was facing and let them sort things out from there. Perhaps this is something a relatively low time pilot would not consider?

RIP
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