Cost of a VFR lighty?

[fury308]

Long time out of Australia and thinking about buying a cheap light aircraft when I return? Lot’s of changes with Part 61 etc.

Can anyone advise the costs associated with flying a light aircraft VFR around Aus?

Landing fees (I’m guessing that depends on the airport)?
Air nav or enroute charges?
Is there an additional cost for controlled airspace?
Parking/hangars in country type airports like Goolwa, Mildura, Swan Hill etc.
Does one need to gain approval to land or is it a given if it is a civil airport and not a privately owned strip (where one would ask first)?
How about a strip on ones own land - is it feasible or a minefield with neighbours, councils etc?
Fuel? (haven’t bought avgas in Aus for 25 years)
Registration? (it will be 4 seater, single)
Anything else that could trap a not so young player?

Also, had a bit of a read and found a couple of misleading or slightly contradictory pieces on ADS-B, is it required or going to be required for VFR aircraft?

Greatly appreciate any information or direction.

fury…

[gerry111]

Originally Posted by fury308

Long time out of Australia and thinking about buying a cheap light aircraft when I return? Lot’s of changes with Part 61 etc.

Can anyone advise the costs associated with flying a light aircraft VFR around Aus?

Jeez, Where does one start?

(Just on AVGAS, Air BP have done away with carnets for people like you and me. But they conveniently haven't enabled their bowsers to accept credit cards, unlike Shell. So if you turn up at YBHI, as an example, be prepared to pay for an expensive call out fee for the operator. Plus pay 20c extra per litre. On a recent April trip to YCDU, we needed fuel. A couple of guys in a rather nice Boeing Stearman had already rang for AIR BP AVGAS there. Fortunately, we were able to share the $120 call out fee..)

[tail wheel]

"....thinking about buying a cheap light aircraft when I return?"

No such thing as a "cheap" light aircraft. If the purchase price seems cheap, expect to need a second mortgage to pay for maintenance.

I recommend a Bex and a long lie down. The temporary insanity will pass!!

From one who has owned too many aircraft (and boats!)!

[Squawk7700]

Nothing has changed much in those 25 years, other than cost. After all, you'll be flying probably the exact same aircraft you were 25 years ago, it will just have been repainted 3 times, the dash will be all scratched, the seats almost worn out and it will have the same instruments, radios and transponder as it won't need ADSB yet.

[3 Holer]

Aircraft, boats and women are ALL cheaper to rent than own!!!

[GoDirect]

If you are located in USA, I would suggest that you buy a good one over there and import it to Oz. Although you will have to pay freight, GST etc, you will end up with a far newer and tidier aircraft and have a wider choice to buy from. Just make sure that you get thorough checks done on what you are looking at over there, as you would have to do in Oz anyway. Also make sure that any outstanding requirements for the type have been done and checked off, eg, SIDS etc.

[fury308]

Thanks all for the replies, not sure you've helped me convince my wife this is a good idea?
Read this yesterday on turnaround, there was another reply that appears to have been deleted - would be happy to read it again if possible? (not sure who posted it)

Good points on the ageing aircraft in Aus, any thoughts on the Glasair Sportsman as a alternative to a conventional Piper, Cessna, Beechcraft?

Thanks again.

fury...

[jonkster]

FWIW - when I did my sums recently on owning/renting for a 4 seat light aircraft with no loan costs, it worked out to be I would need to put 200hrs/year on it before buying beat renting.

That number would be better if you had lower hangar fees than typical Sydney basin or if you were happy for the aircraft to be parked outside.

Those figures depend a lot on aircraft type and hangarage, and also to some extent location (think movement charges, fuel costs etc) but I worked out 200 hours was a roughly the balance point for me and my aircraft choices.

I was expecting fuel to be a big factor but was surprised how hangarage in Sydney (BK/CN) also made a big dent on costs/hour.

I did the calcs for my choices and situation by setting up a quick spreadsheet, looked at approx maintenance budget for engine/airframe spread over typical rebuild times, 100 hourlys, refurbs etc plus fuel costs, hangar costs, insurance, movement charges etc to get an hourly rate it was costing me to feed and water the aircraft.

The more hours I did, the more it dropped the hourly costs (basically the more hours would reduce the impact of the fixed costs). As I said, I found around 200 hours/year it started to look cheaper to buy than rent - depending a bit on aircraft type.

Other factors that you might want to consider when working it out would be if you were needing finance, if there were any tax deductability options, maybe putting it on line to offset costs etc.

[Aussie Bob]

The actual cost of running a light aircraft is insignificant if the ownership of said aircraft is a joy and fun. Also you can choose something that is not normally available for rent. You can also own something short term and loose very little. You could even turn a small profit. Make it a business or part of a business and get taxation benefits and GST on everything aircraft related back.

I have no real idea what my aircraft have cost to own over the years, I am simply not that interested but the accountant I use has tended to raise an eyebrow on the odd July month of reckoning. Having a supporting partner is also essential. I am only allowed to sell mine if it is to buy another. Mine is a couples activity even though she doesn't fly it herself. It is a holiday and fun machine for the both of us.

Go on, spend the kids inheritance. They will only waste it anyway.

[flywatcher]

Well said, Aussie Bob, I'm with you

[fury308]

Thanks too for the replies Jonkster and Aussie Bob.
Appreciate all the replies.
fury...

[fury308]

Apologies for what may be a stupid question: Is one able to change a certified aircraft, say a Cherokee 140 for example, into an "Experimental" aircraft? I appreciate this would devalue the machine, but I'm wondering if one could fit uncertified avionics/engine etc to a certified aircraft if it were deemed experimental?
fury...

[Global Aviator]

I’ve said it before, a trip to Oshkosh in July to see what is really out there!

From experimental to very light to GA. Or spend 500k and get a 2 seat jet (joking kinda).

Every time I visit it just amazes me what is available!

[Sunfish]

Llike yachts; if you have to ask, you can't afford it.

[Possum1]

Is one able to change a certified aircraft, say a Cherokee 140 for example, into an "Experimental" aircraft? I appreciate this would devalue the machine, but I'm wondering if one could fit uncertified avionics/engine etc to a certified aircraft if it were deemed experimental?

If you are looking at a certified Cherokee 140, you will find quite a few with uncertified avionics/engine etc. in them anyway. Your logbook check will find some of these things but not all of them.

There was one Cherokee 140 that a mate owned which had an O-320 E2D engine with the data plate on the engine carefully changed to read E2A so it would be covered by the RAM 160hp STC upgrade as the STC does not cover the E2D engine upgrade in Cherokees. By the way, this upgrade turns the plane into a much safer and willing little rocket ship.

Another one had Metco-aire Hoerner wingtips installed, which lowers the stall speed, increases the cruise speed, increases the climb rate, gives more positive aileron control(so they say) - all good - but absolutely nothing in the logbook saying when, where or by whom they were installed.

Welcome to GA in Australia.

[no_one]

Originally Posted by fury308

Apologies for what may be a stupid question: Is one able to change a certified aircraft, say a Cherokee 140 for example, into an "Experimental" aircraft? I appreciate this would devalue the machine, but I'm wondering if one could fit uncertified avionics/engine etc to a certified aircraft if it were deemed experimental?
fury...

Yes,kind of. There are a number of categories that cover experimental certificates. CASR 21.191 is the relevant bit:

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2017C00742

An experimental certificate may be issued for one or more of the following purposes:
(a) research and development: for example testing new aircraft design concepts, new aircraft equipment, new aircraft installations, new aircraft operating techniques, or new uses for aircraft;

and paragraph i says:
(i) private operations of prototype aircraft previously certificated under paragraph 21.191(a), (b) or (d);

What you would have to do is do the installation for research and development and then you could get an experimental certificate to allow continued private operations. You would need to find a CASA Authorised Person through this link to see what requirements they may have including $$$. https://www.casa.gov.au/licences-and...elegate-search

The conditions associated with the experimental certificate may be restrictive(or may not) and the exercise may not be terribly worthwhile.

[fury308]

Thanks all for the replies, appreciate the effort and detail from Possum1 and no_one along with Sunfish's wisdom and Global Aviator's advice. I have some reading to do and need to go to Oshkosh too!!
fury...

[fujii]

Mine costs around $10000 per year before any flying.

[Lead Balloon]

My understanding - based on some quick research I did a while ago - is that even if you’re able to change an aircraft from ‘standard’ certification to experimental, the maintenance on e.g. the engine still has to be done by a LAME.

[Bend alot]

My understanding is you can not change from "standard" to experimental without making a substantial change to the aircraft that requires it to be in experimental.


Changing radios, instruments and/or power plants can often be done via Engineering Orders - only when it can not be covered by Engineering Orders is experimental an option.