Unintended 457 consequences could ground airlines
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Yesterday on a migration forum a question was answered by a RMA (Registered Migration Agent). The poster working in film production has an Australian company willing to sponsor this person for a 186 visa (Skilled Worker Visa), he asked if the total cost of $13,000 was fair ($7,000 application fees and the like $6000 in "lawyer" fees") for he and his partner.
The RMA replied "Sounds about right for 2 adults if the Nomination is included."
Now these RMA's (lawyers) charge around $180 per hour, so that's over 30 hours by a person knowing how the visa system all works, and has access to documents the general public don't like PAM3.
As with all Australian visas you can do them yourself as I have done in the past with a Partner Visa that also has a fee of around $7,000. This application took me 3-4 months of heavy research and over 1 month more to actually do the application. Even then I had a RMA go over my application before I submitted it. I will also add I had previous visa experiences prior to this application so not a novice.
After lodgement there is virtually no contact from DIBP, we had our application approved about 9 months later - current process times are 12-15 months.
I am aware that process times for 189 visa are a bit faster than this and certainly if the applicant is from a "high risk country" (this depends on passport held and not what you would normally think).
On the other hand I worked overseas - A hand full of relevant papers, a verbal medical with a doctor, a small fee and a long 30 day wait. Then my work permit and residence permits were issued. A simple renewal form was required every 2 years.
Most Australians have NO IDEA nor any care for the state of our visa system, only what they have seen on the news about 457's and "Backpackers Visas" (Is no such thing as a Backpackers Visa FYI), but then the google and see what occupations are on the list and become experts.
457 visas are required in aviation in Australia now and into the future, is the approval system perfect? No, but you need to supply a solution that is workable for all parties - and it needs to be a one size fits all for all occupations not just the small aviation sec
tor.
I would love to hear some good suggestions, I will even pass them on to a MRA that can get them listened to via the Minister for Immigration.
The RMA replied "Sounds about right for 2 adults if the Nomination is included."
Now these RMA's (lawyers) charge around $180 per hour, so that's over 30 hours by a person knowing how the visa system all works, and has access to documents the general public don't like PAM3.
As with all Australian visas you can do them yourself as I have done in the past with a Partner Visa that also has a fee of around $7,000. This application took me 3-4 months of heavy research and over 1 month more to actually do the application. Even then I had a RMA go over my application before I submitted it. I will also add I had previous visa experiences prior to this application so not a novice.
After lodgement there is virtually no contact from DIBP, we had our application approved about 9 months later - current process times are 12-15 months.
I am aware that process times for 189 visa are a bit faster than this and certainly if the applicant is from a "high risk country" (this depends on passport held and not what you would normally think).
On the other hand I worked overseas - A hand full of relevant papers, a verbal medical with a doctor, a small fee and a long 30 day wait. Then my work permit and residence permits were issued. A simple renewal form was required every 2 years.
Most Australians have NO IDEA nor any care for the state of our visa system, only what they have seen on the news about 457's and "Backpackers Visas" (Is no such thing as a Backpackers Visa FYI), but then the google and see what occupations are on the list and become experts.
457 visas are required in aviation in Australia now and into the future, is the approval system perfect? No, but you need to supply a solution that is workable for all parties - and it needs to be a one size fits all for all occupations not just the small aviation sec
tor.
I would love to hear some good suggestions, I will even pass them on to a MRA that can get them listened to via the Minister for Immigration.
Looks like the above would be better off applying for a 408 visa if working in TV. No need for an agent.
Before a film producer can apply for this visa they need the approval of the MEAA. quite a burden of proof of "net employment benefit" to Australians etc is required. The actual visa process is straightforward once you have paid the MEAA and got your "non objection" letter from them.
Total cost? $360 for the visa, $110 for the MEAA last time I did one of these earlier this year. The rest would be going into the agent's/lawyer's pocket.
Before a film producer can apply for this visa they need the approval of the MEAA. quite a burden of proof of "net employment benefit" to Australians etc is required. The actual visa process is straightforward once you have paid the MEAA and got your "non objection" letter from them.
Total cost? $360 for the visa, $110 for the MEAA last time I did one of these earlier this year. The rest would be going into the agent's/lawyer's pocket.
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The 186 is a Permanent Residence visa, the 408 is a temporary (up to 3 months, 2 years or 4 years for government - normally not extendable over 4 years).
That poster working in "film production" (don't know what sector of that field) was self employed in UK and intending on living in Australia permanently.
The restrictions on visas like the 408 including no pathway to a Permanent Visa make it hard to find good candidates when a position/s need to be filled by overseas person/s. If you could only work for 2 years then move to another country and find employment again - would you pick Australia or a country that pays higher expat wages with renewable contract option?
There could be another GFC in 2 years time.
That poster working in "film production" (don't know what sector of that field) was self employed in UK and intending on living in Australia permanently.
The restrictions on visas like the 408 including no pathway to a Permanent Visa make it hard to find good candidates when a position/s need to be filled by overseas person/s. If you could only work for 2 years then move to another country and find employment again - would you pick Australia or a country that pays higher expat wages with renewable contract option?
There could be another GFC in 2 years time.
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This also is new - these are the visa's that are replacing the 457 visa.
Training Benchmarks - Skilling Australians Fund Levy
This levy will replace the current training benchmarks for employers sponsoring workers on Subclass 457 and permanent Employer Nomination Scheme Subclass 186 visas.
From March 2018, businesses with turnover of less than $10 million per year will be required to:
make an upfront payment of $1,200 per visa per year for each employee on a Temporary Skill Shortage visa
a one-off payment of $3,000 for each employee being sponsored for a permanent Employer Nomination Scheme (subclass 186) visa or a permanent Regional Sponsored Migration Scheme (subclass 187) visa.
Businesses with turnover of $10 million or more per year will be required to:
make an upfront payment of $1,800 per visa year for each employee on a Temporary Skill Shortage visa
a one-off payment of $5,000 for each employee being sponsored for a permanent Employer Nomination Scheme (subclass 186) visa or a permanent Regional Sponsored Migration Scheme (subclass 187) visa.
This measure is estimated to achieve revenue of $1.2 billion over the forward estimates period, which will be used to meet future skills needs, with a particular focus on apprenticeships and traineeships.
Training Benchmarks - Skilling Australians Fund Levy
This levy will replace the current training benchmarks for employers sponsoring workers on Subclass 457 and permanent Employer Nomination Scheme Subclass 186 visas.
From March 2018, businesses with turnover of less than $10 million per year will be required to:
make an upfront payment of $1,200 per visa per year for each employee on a Temporary Skill Shortage visa
a one-off payment of $3,000 for each employee being sponsored for a permanent Employer Nomination Scheme (subclass 186) visa or a permanent Regional Sponsored Migration Scheme (subclass 187) visa.
Businesses with turnover of $10 million or more per year will be required to:
make an upfront payment of $1,800 per visa year for each employee on a Temporary Skill Shortage visa
a one-off payment of $5,000 for each employee being sponsored for a permanent Employer Nomination Scheme (subclass 186) visa or a permanent Regional Sponsored Migration Scheme (subclass 187) visa.
This measure is estimated to achieve revenue of $1.2 billion over the forward estimates period, which will be used to meet future skills needs, with a particular focus on apprenticeships and traineeships.
At last, a sensible policy from Canberra. Employers will first want to employ Australians as it will be cheaper. If an Australian can't be found then the position can still be filled but it would make sense to invest in training as it would be cheaper in the long term.
Some countries have a list of occupations reserved exclusively for locals and these are often at the lower end, such as cleaning or driving, to ensure that there are jobs available for the less skilled and pay rates are maintained at a living wage.
Some countries have a list of occupations reserved exclusively for locals and these are often at the lower end, such as cleaning or driving, to ensure that there are jobs available for the less skilled and pay rates are maintained at a living wage.
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Call me sceptic but 2 things our government don't have a good record for spending our money wisely or economically but more politically. They also like the fuel excise introduced to make and maintain roads tend to shift funds into general revenue soon down the track when it suits.
I also compared to other fees DIBP think that these fees are very low. The new Visitor Visa for migrants parents (no work rights or medical) is extendable (offshore) up to 10 years at a cost of $20,000. I believe that in any 18 month period they can not have been in Australia over 12 months.
I also agree around the low skills reserved for Australians it also gives our kids a chance to get some work.
But in general I don't think there needs to be a skills list as such, and even though many of you pilots wont agree there are positions that would be filled by regular flying ability but other assets to bring.
2 spring to mind fast,
A Pilot with a LAME ticket working remote with no AMO nearby.
A multi (more than 2) lingual pilot working in the scenic flight field.
* but these would need to be assessed on merit does the LAME have experience on the aircraft being flown GA8 for example, and does the pilot speak the languages of a high % of passengers that use the company service/s?
If the answer is yes and no other applicants in Australia qualify or want the job, there should be no issue in my opinion. (I believe that an employer should be able to refuse an Australian with valid reason backed with proof.)
I also compared to other fees DIBP think that these fees are very low. The new Visitor Visa for migrants parents (no work rights or medical) is extendable (offshore) up to 10 years at a cost of $20,000. I believe that in any 18 month period they can not have been in Australia over 12 months.
I also agree around the low skills reserved for Australians it also gives our kids a chance to get some work.
But in general I don't think there needs to be a skills list as such, and even though many of you pilots wont agree there are positions that would be filled by regular flying ability but other assets to bring.
2 spring to mind fast,
A Pilot with a LAME ticket working remote with no AMO nearby.
A multi (more than 2) lingual pilot working in the scenic flight field.
* but these would need to be assessed on merit does the LAME have experience on the aircraft being flown GA8 for example, and does the pilot speak the languages of a high % of passengers that use the company service/s?
If the answer is yes and no other applicants in Australia qualify or want the job, there should be no issue in my opinion. (I believe that an employer should be able to refuse an Australian with valid reason backed with proof.)
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But I need a float plane pilot with "x" now.
Go to DIBP say you have advertised for 3 weeks it does not look good for getting a Australian pilot, I have 4 months max before I will have to close my doors.
* DIBP, show me the proof (books given and advertisement receipts given)
*DIBP how long and how much to train up for this position?
* Company - Depends on the applicant (hrs etc) but from $10,000 to $15,000 would be in the ball park and take up to 8 months
*DIBP We will issue you a 457 valid for 10 moths from today, you need to supply your Australian candidate ready for training within 30 days. We will pay the training cost directly and you will be required to pay back 30% over 12 months from when Australians training is completed.
Company - thank-you.
Go to DIBP say you have advertised for 3 weeks it does not look good for getting a Australian pilot, I have 4 months max before I will have to close my doors.
* DIBP, show me the proof (books given and advertisement receipts given)
*DIBP how long and how much to train up for this position?
* Company - Depends on the applicant (hrs etc) but from $10,000 to $15,000 would be in the ball park and take up to 8 months
*DIBP We will issue you a 457 valid for 10 moths from today, you need to supply your Australian candidate ready for training within 30 days. We will pay the training cost directly and you will be required to pay back 30% over 12 months from when Australians training is completed.
Company - thank-you.
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Raptor the same goals can be achieved, mine I don't restrict the company/employer in any real way and give them the chance to operate to their maximum potential while in the back ground, an Australian pilot is being prepared for the job.
The 457 employee will have a full picture of their employment contract and can be paid and plan their life accordingly.
The 457 and tax $'s are well spent and at all times and taxes will be payable.
This I don't see, has any losers and only winners.
Yes it is a bit simplified and only guess numbers used ( I assume 10 months only employment would attracted the 20 or 25% casual pay rate for the 457 worker (but that is no different to the end result of a full time wage), I also assume that on a 10 month contract the employer would need to foot all accommodation and relocation costs.
The 457 employee will have a full picture of their employment contract and can be paid and plan their life accordingly.
The 457 and tax $'s are well spent and at all times and taxes will be payable.
This I don't see, has any losers and only winners.
Yes it is a bit simplified and only guess numbers used ( I assume 10 months only employment would attracted the 20 or 25% casual pay rate for the 457 worker (but that is no different to the end result of a full time wage), I also assume that on a 10 month contract the employer would need to foot all accommodation and relocation costs.
Last edited by Band a Lot; 11th May 2017 at 07:54.
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*DIBP We will issue you a 457 valid for 10 moths from today, you need to supply your Australian candidate ready for training within 30 days. We will pay the training cost directly and you will be required to pay back 30% over 12 months from when Australians training is completed.
Company - thank-you.
Company - thank-you.
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Sadly Wiggley, this will never be how it works.
It requires someone to evaluate an application with no fixed requirement/s, determine it is valid on variable information sources, decide a fair amount of time for both training variations and unseen delays for length a visa to be issued and decide a fair and reasonable payment plan with no fixed figures.
It would take common sense, so it would need to be outsourced, to a call centre - that defeats the purpose of trying to give Australians jobs!
It requires someone to evaluate an application with no fixed requirement/s, determine it is valid on variable information sources, decide a fair amount of time for both training variations and unseen delays for length a visa to be issued and decide a fair and reasonable payment plan with no fixed figures.
It would take common sense, so it would need to be outsourced, to a call centre - that defeats the purpose of trying to give Australians jobs!
Via Dick Smith, who started the thread after all?
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Yes Raptor that is the guts of it.
The employer get to chip in for part of the training over time, has a very short lead time in filling a position but most importantly is not restricted by red tape.
An Aussie pilot will get training and a job and pay taxes that actually repay the training cost.
If a good draft is written I can pass it on to several Registered Migration Agents that can then forward it on to the Immigration Minister. As well as Dick Smith's presenting it to his contacts.
Yes it would need to be able to have a selection criteria that needed to only include top up training.
Like for a Seafood Chef, they must have previous cooking training and experience. Not just get your nephew trained up for free.
The employer get to chip in for part of the training over time, has a very short lead time in filling a position but most importantly is not restricted by red tape.
An Aussie pilot will get training and a job and pay taxes that actually repay the training cost.
If a good draft is written I can pass it on to several Registered Migration Agents that can then forward it on to the Immigration Minister. As well as Dick Smith's presenting it to his contacts.
Yes it would need to be able to have a selection criteria that needed to only include top up training.
Like for a Seafood Chef, they must have previous cooking training and experience. Not just get your nephew trained up for free.
Last edited by Band a Lot; 12th May 2017 at 08:44.
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Oh and the 10 months was just an example. Maybe as low as 6 months or as high as 2 years, but this would be dependant on the training required (this is not just for aviation).
Lets say a specific job requires a 8 month course and only one course is held a year, that might require a 2 year visa depending on the time of application.
This is all the information the employer would need to give the DIBP when requesting a 457. Also it would be best to have the visa attached to a company not a person (you could have 10 different persons doing 1 month each if required).
Lets say a specific job requires a 8 month course and only one course is held a year, that might require a 2 year visa depending on the time of application.
This is all the information the employer would need to give the DIBP when requesting a 457. Also it would be best to have the visa attached to a company not a person (you could have 10 different persons doing 1 month each if required).
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Raptor, years ago CES (centerlink) paid for training for aircraft maintenance courses in Rockhampton QLD as advertised in the Friday Australian. I enquired at my local CES not in QLD only to find it was only open to people that lived in QLD.
I sort of complained and after several days and meetings at CES, they stumped me!
If you get a letter with 100% employment chance after doing these courses (airframe 1,5,6 &10, basic gas with a PT6) and you joiun for unemployment benefits we will pay your transport to and from QLD, pay your CASA exam fees, your course costs, accommodation and the unemployment benefit for the 6 months.
They expected to see the last of me, no-one gives a 100% employment letter!
By end of day about 5 hours later, I had 3 letters of guaranteed employment with the 1,5,6 &10 licence - I was on the bus about a week later.
They were fairly shocked and I got +$20k in training and yes started a job on my return 6 months later.
I sort of complained and after several days and meetings at CES, they stumped me!
If you get a letter with 100% employment chance after doing these courses (airframe 1,5,6 &10, basic gas with a PT6) and you joiun for unemployment benefits we will pay your transport to and from QLD, pay your CASA exam fees, your course costs, accommodation and the unemployment benefit for the 6 months.
They expected to see the last of me, no-one gives a 100% employment letter!
By end of day about 5 hours later, I had 3 letters of guaranteed employment with the 1,5,6 &10 licence - I was on the bus about a week later.
They were fairly shocked and I got +$20k in training and yes started a job on my return 6 months later.
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Also for thought new changes to the budget effect many visa holders including 457's. These changes also directly effect Australian Citizens.
The changes are to tertiary education, Permanent Residents are not treated like Citizens anymore. As an example a science uni course was $9,050 per year ($27,150) to $35,824 per year ($107,472).
Once a Permanent Residence visa is granted it is a 4 year wait to apply for Citizenship (I am not sure of current waiting times to process citizenship application but it is not fast).
So any current and any future 457 visa holders will need to take their childrens/partners education requirements into account as to come to Australia or leave. This can reduce our employment pool when we do need skilled workers.
As my wife is not from Australia and has two teenage children, they are currently on stage 1 of Partner Visa and that is a Temporary Visa. So their 4 year wait can not even start yet. They will have been in Australia 7 and a half years when they can apply for Citizenship.
My wife wants to go to uni now, both kids intend to go to uni after year 12. So in 2 years we will be looking at $100,000 + in education fees for at least 1 year & $75K for a few others. There are plans to move to 4 year degrees soon.
For us the smart move would be to move to Europe till the youngest finishes uni, free of charge and possibly return to Australia in 6 years time.
I wonder how many 457 holders are thinking the same?
There are several million people living and working in Australia as Permanent Residents for a variety of reasons they are not citizens.
The changes are to tertiary education, Permanent Residents are not treated like Citizens anymore. As an example a science uni course was $9,050 per year ($27,150) to $35,824 per year ($107,472).
Once a Permanent Residence visa is granted it is a 4 year wait to apply for Citizenship (I am not sure of current waiting times to process citizenship application but it is not fast).
So any current and any future 457 visa holders will need to take their childrens/partners education requirements into account as to come to Australia or leave. This can reduce our employment pool when we do need skilled workers.
As my wife is not from Australia and has two teenage children, they are currently on stage 1 of Partner Visa and that is a Temporary Visa. So their 4 year wait can not even start yet. They will have been in Australia 7 and a half years when they can apply for Citizenship.
My wife wants to go to uni now, both kids intend to go to uni after year 12. So in 2 years we will be looking at $100,000 + in education fees for at least 1 year & $75K for a few others. There are plans to move to 4 year degrees soon.
For us the smart move would be to move to Europe till the youngest finishes uni, free of charge and possibly return to Australia in 6 years time.
I wonder how many 457 holders are thinking the same?
There are several million people living and working in Australia as Permanent Residents for a variety of reasons they are not citizens.
