Unintended 457 consequences could ground airlines
Dick CASA costs are small compared to the cost of operating at one of the privatised airports, costs which are not only direct in rents, landing fees etc but also indirect, passed on by maintenance organisations etc as they have massive rents to pay. Pus of course the location specific charging by Airservices.
If you could use your considerable influence to lobby on behalf of operators who are at the mercy of greedy developers that would be awesome however as successive ministers of both parties have let them get away with this gouging for so long now I doubt anything could be done now.
I don't feel any sympathy for the operators complaining about the 457 issue.
If you could use your considerable influence to lobby on behalf of operators who are at the mercy of greedy developers that would be awesome however as successive ministers of both parties have let them get away with this gouging for so long now I doubt anything could be done now.
I don't feel any sympathy for the operators complaining about the 457 issue.
Clare Prop actually brings up a really big point there, the major training organisations are at the major GA Airports, Bankstown, Archerfield, Jandakot etc... and with developers being put in control of these the rents being jacked up it has heavily impacted on the cost of training and there really is absolutely nothing that can be done about this I fear!
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457 unintended consequences.....
The tightening it up making it harder for employers? YAY!!!!!!
The whole 457 scheme when coupled with EBA suck eggs big time.
As most of you know I am a panel beater by trade, former shop owner etc. Life choices in the last 12 months found me living and working in Mackay. Just before xmass, i decided to join the team at a local shop that is part of an almost national panel shop chain. This particular chain is a MAJOR employer of 457 guys.
I can tell you in no uncertain terms, that these 457 blokes in regional area's are doing it hard.
I felt i was being underpaid for my skills and knowledge. The managers opinion was that the foreman, could cover any missing skills in the 457's, and I was there merely to back him up. The shop was busy and understaffed. During a discussion about hiring, i mentioned I knew some people that would take the pay hit for the lifestyle.
The manager took the time to show me the figures as to why aussies were not viable.
To pay the required money for 3 aussies, he could have 5 457's, and that was based on lower money than i could earn in melbourne.
In melbourne, i can easily draw 1300 per week in hand. In mackay......or any of this companies shops, if you are drawing 900 in hand, you are pressured heavily and made to feel that you are overpaid.
I knew i was drawing a short straw when i took the job, but had the view that the best way to understand the dragon is to stare it in the eyes.
457's are kind of forced to work in regional area's, as it makes it easier for them to get approvals, but due to the sponsorship nature of the visa, allows the employers to drive down wages. They lose their sponsor, they lose their visa.
$800 for a qualified beater each week...GTFO, some of these guys are better than some aussie tradies.....easily get 1500 in melbourne.
I digress...
The tightening it up making it harder for employers? YAY!!!!!!
The whole 457 scheme when coupled with EBA suck eggs big time.
As most of you know I am a panel beater by trade, former shop owner etc. Life choices in the last 12 months found me living and working in Mackay. Just before xmass, i decided to join the team at a local shop that is part of an almost national panel shop chain. This particular chain is a MAJOR employer of 457 guys.
I can tell you in no uncertain terms, that these 457 blokes in regional area's are doing it hard.
I felt i was being underpaid for my skills and knowledge. The managers opinion was that the foreman, could cover any missing skills in the 457's, and I was there merely to back him up. The shop was busy and understaffed. During a discussion about hiring, i mentioned I knew some people that would take the pay hit for the lifestyle.
The manager took the time to show me the figures as to why aussies were not viable.
To pay the required money for 3 aussies, he could have 5 457's, and that was based on lower money than i could earn in melbourne.
In melbourne, i can easily draw 1300 per week in hand. In mackay......or any of this companies shops, if you are drawing 900 in hand, you are pressured heavily and made to feel that you are overpaid.
I knew i was drawing a short straw when i took the job, but had the view that the best way to understand the dragon is to stare it in the eyes.
457's are kind of forced to work in regional area's, as it makes it easier for them to get approvals, but due to the sponsorship nature of the visa, allows the employers to drive down wages. They lose their sponsor, they lose their visa.
$800 for a qualified beater each week...GTFO, some of these guys are better than some aussie tradies.....easily get 1500 in melbourne.
I digress...
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Jaz, my first job out of school was a panel beating apprenticeship, got the ticket then walked. I did other things for a bit, then returned to it for a 12 month stint to save for a backpacking trip. In '89 in Sydney I was pulling about $1700 a week, fixing smash during normal hours and a days overtime bogging up rust for rego checks.
Is that how far the conditions have deteriorated??
Is that how far the conditions have deteriorated??
Ok Dick, you started it - hands up if you have a foreigner and not an Australian flying your aircraft.
I have seen too many of our wealthy Australians and our airlines hire foreigners because locals wont or cant afford to take their conditions while a foreigner will see it as a chance to survive in paradise for x years while taking it in the jacksy in order to get permanent residency and then they scarper.
Yes Australians - please refuse to join the race to the bottom.
Crikey, flying on Jetstar I could be in Asia. Call a taxi - I could be in Mumbai....
I have seen too many of our wealthy Australians and our airlines hire foreigners because locals wont or cant afford to take their conditions while a foreigner will see it as a chance to survive in paradise for x years while taking it in the jacksy in order to get permanent residency and then they scarper.
Yes Australians - please refuse to join the race to the bottom.
Crikey, flying on Jetstar I could be in Asia. Call a taxi - I could be in Mumbai....
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avionics engineers totally, while airframe and engine engineers are only eligible for temporary visas without any access to residency
In GA I see instructors being paid the same hourly rate today as I was paid 20 years ago. While I would love that to be different, how? Schools are struggling to make a buck as it is and many have shut up shop.
At the top end of the food chain, how viable would Oz airlines be if they paid pilots more?
As it is I have always seen aviation in Oz as an industry that makes an average buck in the good times and is hand to mouth in the bad times and there are as many bad times as there are good times.
If you wanted to make money in Oz you wouldn't run an airline. They keep going by racing each other to the bottom in terms of prices, services and conditions.
Perhaps what we need is a change in how the aviation industry is viewed by our pollies?
We have a regulatory body whose mission is to promote safety in civil aviation. Which is fair enough.
What we don't have is a body whose mission is to promote the viability of the civil aviation industry in Australia.
Not necessarily saying we need more bureaucrats and a separate organisation but perhaps lobby the pollies to change CASAs mission statement from:
to:
A man has to dream.
At the top end of the food chain, how viable would Oz airlines be if they paid pilots more?
As it is I have always seen aviation in Oz as an industry that makes an average buck in the good times and is hand to mouth in the bad times and there are as many bad times as there are good times.
If you wanted to make money in Oz you wouldn't run an airline. They keep going by racing each other to the bottom in terms of prices, services and conditions.
Perhaps what we need is a change in how the aviation industry is viewed by our pollies?
We have a regulatory body whose mission is to promote safety in civil aviation. Which is fair enough.
What we don't have is a body whose mission is to promote the viability of the civil aviation industry in Australia.
Not necessarily saying we need more bureaucrats and a separate organisation but perhaps lobby the pollies to change CASAs mission statement from:
To enhance and promote aviation safety through effective safety regulation and by encouraging industry to deliver high standards of safety
To enhance and promote the safety and sustainability of civil aviation in Australia, through both effective safety regulation and the provision of services that encourage industry sustainability and development
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You've hit the hail on the head, this is exactly what happens when a pilot refuses to work for less than the award or pay for endorsements. The next morning there is a line up of young pilots willing to work for free/below award and pay for endorsements.
Maybe they have wealthy parents, I don't know. But one thing I do know is that I cannot survive on the GA wage in a capital city with a family to feed and the expenses that come with that.
I once worked out my hourly GA pilot wage to be less than $15 per hour when I took into account my 11 hour days, when I was rostered for 8, cost of renewals, maps, medical and ersa/AIP all of which I paid for out of my salary. I wasn't left with much at the end of the week and I was a drain on the household budget. I quit soon after. I went back a few times thinking it could work "this time" but within a few months, cashflow starts drying up and the cycle starts again.
I don't know what the solution is, or even if there is a solution now it's this far gone.
I don't refuse to work under these conditions or pay for training just to be a smart ass, it's simply a matter of financial survival. I grew up in a very poor home, and I ain't going back to that, not even for flying!
Maybe they have wealthy parents, I don't know. But one thing I do know is that I cannot survive on the GA wage in a capital city with a family to feed and the expenses that come with that.
I once worked out my hourly GA pilot wage to be less than $15 per hour when I took into account my 11 hour days, when I was rostered for 8, cost of renewals, maps, medical and ersa/AIP all of which I paid for out of my salary. I wasn't left with much at the end of the week and I was a drain on the household budget. I quit soon after. I went back a few times thinking it could work "this time" but within a few months, cashflow starts drying up and the cycle starts again.
I don't know what the solution is, or even if there is a solution now it's this far gone.
I don't refuse to work under these conditions or pay for training just to be a smart ass, it's simply a matter of financial survival. I grew up in a very poor home, and I ain't going back to that, not even for flying!
I have had people offer to pay me to employ them. 
Yes, I can believe that Clare.
Back in de days, (late '67) I worked for a well known aero club at Archerfield, and they had a couple of FK-27 FO's working 'honorary'.....
Something about getting 'in command' hours if I recall.....
Poor ole muggins like moi was to be 'stood aside' when these guys were 'on duty', as I was paid by the flying hour plus a small retainer, and said 'gentlemen' were 'FREE'.......
That's when I went 'West'......
No cheers then.....nope ....none at all...
So, in reality, not much change, is there..??
Back in de days, (late '67) I worked for a well known aero club at Archerfield, and they had a couple of FK-27 FO's working 'honorary'.....
Something about getting 'in command' hours if I recall.....
Poor ole muggins like moi was to be 'stood aside' when these guys were 'on duty', as I was paid by the flying hour plus a small retainer, and said 'gentlemen' were 'FREE'.......
That's when I went 'West'......
No cheers then.....nope ....none at all...
So, in reality, not much change, is there..??
I see Rex now saying that without 457s they could not crew their machines.
Lost my job 2 years ago. Early 50s, >13,000 hours. Applied to Rex - 2 years later, still deafening silence.
Please don't tell me their are no Aussies to fill seats.
Lost my job 2 years ago. Early 50s, >13,000 hours. Applied to Rex - 2 years later, still deafening silence.
Please don't tell me their are no Aussies to fill seats.
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So the crux is, top end of town the pay is ok
Bottom end, you are lucky to be paid.
But thats ok, when you get to the top.
That rides really really well for the guys that don't want the top job.
when I began doing my commercial, my goal was 340's with Rex.until i looked at the pay.
Bottom end, you are lucky to be paid.
But thats ok, when you get to the top.
That rides really really well for the guys that don't want the top job.
when I began doing my commercial, my goal was 340's with Rex.until i looked at the pay.
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GA has been training every Australian pilot for ever, none of the pilots give anything back to the sector. They just want to be airline pilots, and abandon ship at first hint of a larger type or a twin or a turbine to another (known not nice) employer along the way.
Look at the changes that GA need to comply with that reduces the bottom end - most introduced by CASA. Even the indirect like an AD, Australian mostly were easy to read. Now it is country of origin and while CASA post some it is up to us to work out if any apply - then it takes ages to interpret the rubbish from the core matter! (time = $'s). Every new CASA staff has an interpretation of a reg (it does not agree with the last CASA guy) but seems the CASA legal team support both of them and their opposite means of compliance.
Then no pilot likes a bond to cover "training" they want the training but free if leave in a short period after.
Why not grow a few and respect the training given?????
Do your term or pay a fine for jumping ship - you guys cost lots of money to companies!!!
They can only claim at some times a part of the direct cost of that training.
What about the direct costs? - NO a care in the World is my guess
Own worst enemy yes - training is far more expensive than it was- then you all ran off to the sand pit!
Invest your own $'s in training via your union, oh they never have! is my bet!!!
Look at the changes that GA need to comply with that reduces the bottom end - most introduced by CASA. Even the indirect like an AD, Australian mostly were easy to read. Now it is country of origin and while CASA post some it is up to us to work out if any apply - then it takes ages to interpret the rubbish from the core matter! (time = $'s). Every new CASA staff has an interpretation of a reg (it does not agree with the last CASA guy) but seems the CASA legal team support both of them and their opposite means of compliance.
Then no pilot likes a bond to cover "training" they want the training but free if leave in a short period after.
Why not grow a few and respect the training given?????
Do your term or pay a fine for jumping ship - you guys cost lots of money to companies!!!
They can only claim at some times a part of the direct cost of that training.
What about the direct costs? - NO a care in the World is my guess
Own worst enemy yes - training is far more expensive than it was- then you all ran off to the sand pit!
Invest your own $'s in training via your union, oh they never have! is my bet!!!
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The name is porter......
A good contractor now can pull 2k or more if he is gung ho, and slaps in a few extra hours, but that hinges around the tools available and the quality of the estimator.
The trade is screwed.
Seriousl Lack of training of apprentices (AME's are in the same boat).
I won't name companies, but the last one i worked for is a prime leader, but a serious race to the bottom $
Yes I worked for them for $900 in hand on unit based award, but it was 2 fold for me...i needed the cash, and i wanted to see how they did things. (industry groups I am involved in are highly critical, so working for them gave me actual knowledge).
Aviation and the auto body repair industries have an identical problem.
The total lack of investment in training, and i think mechanics are about to join the list.
Pilot training is also suffering...with you pay rather than your employer..............being bonded is a better option than self funding.
In the auto body repair sector, the change in technology is so fast paced, that by the time an apprentice finishes, he almost needs to go back to school to catch up.
There is a company called I-Car, that offers online courses in new car technology. These courses are primarily aimed at tradesmen and keeping them up to date.
Just before xmass, i enrolled and went through the RPL stuff with them. Of 276 modules they offered,
I qualified for 57.
I approached my employer to do some of the courses that he wasn't qualified to sign off on....his response was "sure, thats a great idea, let me know when you have done them so we can accept that type of work"
----------------------------------------------------------
The country is screwed.
Bring back tech and trade schools.......take trade training away from tafe.
Jaz, my first job out of school was a panel beating apprenticeship, got the ticket then walked. I did other things for a bit, then returned to it for a 12 month stint to save for a backpacking trip. In '89 in Sydney I was pulling about $1700 a week, fixing smash during normal hours and a days overtime bogging up rust for rego checks.
Is that how far the conditions have deteriorated??
Is that how far the conditions have deteriorated??
The trade is screwed.
Seriousl Lack of training of apprentices (AME's are in the same boat).
I won't name companies, but the last one i worked for is a prime leader, but a serious race to the bottom $
Yes I worked for them for $900 in hand on unit based award, but it was 2 fold for me...i needed the cash, and i wanted to see how they did things. (industry groups I am involved in are highly critical, so working for them gave me actual knowledge).
Aviation and the auto body repair industries have an identical problem.
The total lack of investment in training, and i think mechanics are about to join the list.
Pilot training is also suffering...with you pay rather than your employer..............being bonded is a better option than self funding.
In the auto body repair sector, the change in technology is so fast paced, that by the time an apprentice finishes, he almost needs to go back to school to catch up.
There is a company called I-Car, that offers online courses in new car technology. These courses are primarily aimed at tradesmen and keeping them up to date.
Just before xmass, i enrolled and went through the RPL stuff with them. Of 276 modules they offered,
I qualified for 57.
I approached my employer to do some of the courses that he wasn't qualified to sign off on....his response was "sure, thats a great idea, let me know when you have done them so we can accept that type of work"
----------------------------------------------------------
The country is screwed.
Bring back tech and trade schools.......take trade training away from tafe.
Thread Starter
Ramble On. No. I would never employ a person on a work visa to fly my aircraft. Have employed lots of pilots over the years but not unless true blue.
It's the whole cost issue that's out of hand.
Then again CASA appear to have advertised lots of jobs at about $150k inc super . So what's going on here.
My whole life has been about getting the Aviation Act changed to reflect viability of companies. Even saw the minister about three weeks ago about this very issue. Got nowhere.
And I now hear a person who could do a lot to reduce costs has been rejected by the CASA Chairman and Board for consideration for the top job.
Why are they doing this?
It's the whole cost issue that's out of hand.
Then again CASA appear to have advertised lots of jobs at about $150k inc super . So what's going on here.
My whole life has been about getting the Aviation Act changed to reflect viability of companies. Even saw the minister about three weeks ago about this very issue. Got nowhere.
And I now hear a person who could do a lot to reduce costs has been rejected by the CASA Chairman and Board for consideration for the top job.
Why are they doing this?
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Raptor, you are a very rare bird.
Yes folks like yourself an employer will go the extra mile and then some.
That training is a true investment in their company, and just to be sure you are true to word - lets contract it with a bond.
Then it is still yes to a face - but often a bitch behind the back.
Yes folks like yourself an employer will go the extra mile and then some.
That training is a true investment in their company, and just to be sure you are true to word - lets contract it with a bond.
Then it is still yes to a face - but often a bitch behind the back.
Its a vision thing....... The vision of the Governments of both persuasions, CASA, Airservices, the airlines and the RAAF is that GA and recreational aviation are, at best, forms of "Air Pollution" and at worst potential terrorist threats. The vision of property developers and local Government is that all airports are Greenfield property development sites. The perception of the general public (in cities) is that GA and recreational flying is for rich silver tails.
In my short time as a pilot and aircraft builder, I have not seen nor heard one bit of support. let alone encouragement of GA from anyone in government, period.
In my short time as a pilot and aircraft builder, I have not seen nor heard one bit of support. let alone encouragement of GA from anyone in government, period.
I was very fortunate to begin an aviation career in the early seventies, and go through to normal international retirement age. I also have recent Regional Airline experience and saw first hand the abuse and bullying perpetrated on young pilots who go the extra mile to try to build their careers into something worthwhile.
CASA can have all the mission statements they like, but until they employ people who actually know something about Aviation Safety, nothing will ever change. There are individuals out there in the Regional World in CASA approved positions of authority who are clearly unsuitable for the roles they administer. These individuals have an undesirable impact on the lives and careers of many good people, and the consequences of this can be permanent and damaging not only to those affected, but the industry as a whole, resulting in a spiral of intimidation.
My point is that until the Regulator demonstrates some sort of empathy towards Aviation through action rather than words, all of the views mentioned in these threads will be sustained. It is very pleasing to see a fairly unified position on this matter from all contributors.
CASA can have all the mission statements they like, but until they employ people who actually know something about Aviation Safety, nothing will ever change. There are individuals out there in the Regional World in CASA approved positions of authority who are clearly unsuitable for the roles they administer. These individuals have an undesirable impact on the lives and careers of many good people, and the consequences of this can be permanent and damaging not only to those affected, but the industry as a whole, resulting in a spiral of intimidation.
My point is that until the Regulator demonstrates some sort of empathy towards Aviation through action rather than words, all of the views mentioned in these threads will be sustained. It is very pleasing to see a fairly unified position on this matter from all contributors.