A bit of ATC history please
Also do you know why FS kept the low level non radar airspace and ATC the radar airspace.
ATC had their airspace before they had radar. Radar was just a tool to help them do their job better. FS didn't need it for the level of service they provided, so didn't get access to it, and as has been pointed out, there was no coverage in the vast majority of the airspace they were responsible for.
Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 16th Mar 2017 at 12:38.
Hi 'Traffic',
I've tried to scan my letter of intro to join the PREIA, but to no avail.....
However, the title as I read it direct is as stated......."
"Employees' "
Note the 'apostrophy'.......'Tis in the title.... That's how it was in 1974 anyway....
Cheers
.
I've tried to scan my letter of intro to join the PREIA, but to no avail.....
However, the title as I read it direct is as stated......."
"Employees' "
Note the 'apostrophy'.......'Tis in the title.... That's how it was in 1974 anyway....
Cheers
.
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 17th Mar 2017 at 02:34. Reason: Clarify the date..1974...
Mr 'Traffic' has done his research....Thankyou Mr T...
The 'original' CTA was in the form of 'air corridors' along busy airways, usually with a base of FL245 - TCTA - although there were a lot lower in the 'J curve' of course.
I served mostly in WA, so that's what I remember the most.
Most 'comms' were with FS on FS freqs at the time and positions were 'relayed' to ATC, via 'internal comms'.
e.g. There was a CTA 'corridor' between Port Hedland, Broome and Darwin, but if the two usually 'conflicting' FK.28's of the same company restricted their climb to FL200 ex Derby for 'Kunners' to 110nm Derby, then they were outside this corridor, and could climb as they pleased after 110nm Derbs....Some did, and some didn't...but we showed it to them on the charts of the time anyway....It did save 'restrictions' on the following aircraft, and presumably, some $'s...
Similarly, Ze 'Concorde' caused many an 'upset' between ATC and FS....when the upper level of CTA was the 'impossible' alt. of FL400......
On climbing thru FL400, he became 'OURS' - he was OCTA!!
The local MET asked me to req. part 3 of the next pos. over the Bight at FL 650, (Weather report - wind and temp - and he did 'with gusto'..!
A particular Perth and 'famous' operator had a request from ATC Perth approach to have Concorde' transferred 'early' to ATC freqs, on descent into Perth from the SW, and the response was "He's OCTA until 28DME on that track, so unless you have severe 'traffic' I'll give him to you at 30DME Perth" - troo story....
(Back Beam of the Rwy 24 LLZ of the time....)
And so the 'rivalry' continued....
ATC = Officers, usually ex RAAF in the 'early days'.
FS = 'Other Ranks' often ex RAN comm / radio ops / techs of the time.
(Sometimes referred to as 'smellies' as we manned the many 'Briefing Offices' (BO)
However Dick et al, you will all be very pleased to know that many an FSO crossed over to 'The Dark Side' when you got rid of FS, because...... ??
Cheers
The 'original' CTA was in the form of 'air corridors' along busy airways, usually with a base of FL245 - TCTA - although there were a lot lower in the 'J curve' of course.
I served mostly in WA, so that's what I remember the most.
Most 'comms' were with FS on FS freqs at the time and positions were 'relayed' to ATC, via 'internal comms'.
e.g. There was a CTA 'corridor' between Port Hedland, Broome and Darwin, but if the two usually 'conflicting' FK.28's of the same company restricted their climb to FL200 ex Derby for 'Kunners' to 110nm Derby, then they were outside this corridor, and could climb as they pleased after 110nm Derbs....Some did, and some didn't...but we showed it to them on the charts of the time anyway....It did save 'restrictions' on the following aircraft, and presumably, some $'s...
Similarly, Ze 'Concorde' caused many an 'upset' between ATC and FS....when the upper level of CTA was the 'impossible' alt. of FL400......
On climbing thru FL400, he became 'OURS' - he was OCTA!!
The local MET asked me to req. part 3 of the next pos. over the Bight at FL 650, (Weather report - wind and temp - and he did 'with gusto'..!
A particular Perth and 'famous' operator had a request from ATC Perth approach to have Concorde' transferred 'early' to ATC freqs, on descent into Perth from the SW, and the response was "He's OCTA until 28DME on that track, so unless you have severe 'traffic' I'll give him to you at 30DME Perth" - troo story....
(Back Beam of the Rwy 24 LLZ of the time....)
And so the 'rivalry' continued....
ATC = Officers, usually ex RAAF in the 'early days'.
FS = 'Other Ranks' often ex RAN comm / radio ops / techs of the time.
(Sometimes referred to as 'smellies' as we manned the many 'Briefing Offices' (BO)
However Dick et al, you will all be very pleased to know that many an FSO crossed over to 'The Dark Side' when you got rid of FS, because...... ??
Cheers
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 17th Mar 2017 at 02:33. Reason: Correction to LL of TCTA......At the time....
Thread Starter
Am I correct in remembering that before I wrecked everything with AMATS in 1991 that en route controlled airspace was above 12500' in the j curve and above FL245 in th GARA?
Es FSO. Yes. Remember it very well. I was Chairman of CAA at the time when we instigated the changes
Es FSO. Yes. Remember it very well. I was Chairman of CAA at the time when we instigated the changes
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Am I correct in remembering that before I wrecked everything with AMATS in 1991 that en route controlled airspace was above 12500' in the j curve and above FL245 in th GARA?
And just because the site won't let me post a one-word answer: no.
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Back in the late 60's when I did the FS course, the public service had divisions and ATC were Division 3 and FS were in Division 4. I recall that was based on amoungst other things one's level of education. The course prior to mine were all Communication officers (Comm Officers). I knew many FSOs that went into ATC over the years.
I later left FS to take up a flying career. I thank my FS years for teaching me how to type and say 'No' to ATC!
I later left FS to take up a flying career. I thank my FS years for teaching me how to type and say 'No' to ATC!
'Tis called the 'GAFA' Dick...... Great Aust F All.........Originally coined by an illustrious pilot out the back of NW WA so I heard at the time....Now applies to 'all over' our more remote areas.....Used to be an RNC reporting point named so on the Kal - Alice track - "GAFFA".
And most of us 'ex's have worked in it / lived in it, and, as a GA charter pilot flown in it / over it / lived in it.....a GREAT PLACE...(sometimes...)
Re "I am sure you are correct because 500' altitudes were introduced with AMATS.'
I fairly sure that the so called 'quadrantal' rule was in operation in the early 60's when I was doing my navs.
You know, 'Odds, odds +5, evens, evens + 5', depending on your planned track magnetic.
Memories....the 'good ole days'...formerly called 'these trying times'....
I seem to remember that the lower level of TCTA at the time was FL245, upper level to FL400, as described earlier.
(TCTA = Trans-continental CTA, was composed of several corridors across the continent, away from the 'J' curve, usually aligned along a route for Jet traffic, navaid to navaid, prior to the 'mod cons' of INS Nav etc etc).
Cheers
And most of us 'ex's have worked in it / lived in it, and, as a GA charter pilot flown in it / over it / lived in it.....a GREAT PLACE...(sometimes...)
Re "I am sure you are correct because 500' altitudes were introduced with AMATS.'
I fairly sure that the so called 'quadrantal' rule was in operation in the early 60's when I was doing my navs.
You know, 'Odds, odds +5, evens, evens + 5', depending on your planned track magnetic.
Memories....the 'good ole days'...formerly called 'these trying times'....
I seem to remember that the lower level of TCTA at the time was FL245, upper level to FL400, as described earlier.
(TCTA = Trans-continental CTA, was composed of several corridors across the continent, away from the 'J' curve, usually aligned along a route for Jet traffic, navaid to navaid, prior to the 'mod cons' of INS Nav etc etc).
Cheers
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There were some differences between ATCs and FSOs in the late 70s. I worked with a controller in Alice tower who, one day told how he had chosen the job. When looking around, a friend had taken him to visit the centre in Darwin.
He first visited FS where the FSOs wore long white socks, shorts, buttoned shirt and tie. He next visited ATC where the staff wore thongs, shorts and Tee shirts. He applied for ATC.
He first visited FS where the FSOs wore long white socks, shorts, buttoned shirt and tie. He next visited ATC where the staff wore thongs, shorts and Tee shirts. He applied for ATC.
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Dick
Re your post #28. Generally CTA between the major capital cities had a lower limit of A100 outside of CTA steps. The lower limit of TCTAs was generally FL250, not FL245, and the upper limit was FL450 (Griffo, I think you need to do another General Rating exam. Your theory knowledge is fading).
Re your post #28. Generally CTA between the major capital cities had a lower limit of A100 outside of CTA steps. The lower limit of TCTAs was generally FL250, not FL245, and the upper limit was FL450 (Griffo, I think you need to do another General Rating exam. Your theory knowledge is fading).
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I think it is widely accepted that the "Kyeema" accident in 1938 was the call to arms the Government could no longer ignore. However it followed two other high profile crashes, the ANA's Southern Cloud in 1931 and Airlines of Australia's Stinson in 1937.
The Government apparently already had plans for operational control centres at the capital city airports, but only Parafield, Archerfield and Mascot were completed before the war.
The Government apparently already had plans for operational control centres at the capital city airports, but only Parafield, Archerfield and Mascot were completed before the war.
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and the upper limit was FL450
http://http://www.civilair.asn.au/index.php/about-us
Perhaps this has the information you are seeking but then again I think there is an agenda behind your question. If so, what is it?
Perhaps this has the information you are seeking but then again I think there is an agenda behind your question. If so, what is it?
As Griffo has mentioned, the top of CTA back in the 70's was FL400. The Lear 24 BSJ frequently operated EN-SY at FL410 both Northbound and Southbound. The pilots always objected to being told to squawk standby and call FS on leaving FL400 on climb!! However we always kept ident on them regardless, for they were certainly part of the traffic mix outbound and inbound to ML/EN. Those were days when transponders had just been introduced and ident was kept on each aircraft by "shrimp boats".
Between AD-ML-CB-SY and ML-Tasmania, the CTA base was 10,000ft.
Between AD-ML-CB-SY and ML-Tasmania, the CTA base was 10,000ft.