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Type Rating on Australian License from Asia. How does that work

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Type Rating on Australian License from Asia. How does that work

Old 14th Mar 2017, 13:49
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Type Rating on Australian License from Asia. How does that work

Hello guys,

I hold an Australian CPL and wanted to check if I can be granted a TYPE RATING on my aussie license from Thailand? I was advised by CASA that it needs to be from a Recognised Foreign State and that I have two options:-

- Option A: Hold the aircraft on a foreign ICAO compliant licence; or
- Option B: Complete the training with an appropriate training organisation that is a Recognised Foreign State.

I am finding it hard to decipher what exactly they mean.

Could some who may have gotten their Type Rating from overseas throw some light on this please?
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 20:04
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Hey PPSS,

Option A is for when you have any additional licences and want to transfer you type rating onto Australian license. I couldn't find anything in regulations mandating issue of the licence by a recognised states when transferring TR from existing license. However, you better double-check it. Don't call general line, ring Flight Training and Testing department. They are in the know (well, some of them )

Option B is a different cattle of fish. This is for when you want to study abroad and then get your Australian licence endorsed. In this case, there is a list of so-called recognised states in definitions for Part 61 (CASR 61.010) which I posted below. It simply defines the list of countries where you can study. If you want to go this way - just pick the provider and go for it BUT exactly 3 things need to match:
1. Training organisation has to have an approval of a recognised state, not only to train but to administer exact course you'll pick,
2. Sim that you will use has to be approved by a recognised state and reflect approvals for elements applicable to your course, e.g: approved for TR issue, IPC, low vis, etc. It is pretty much standard EASA approval all across EU, but again something to check.
3. Examiner administering your skill test has to have an approval to do it from a recognised state.
3.5 If you are planning for a multi-crew aircraft - training organisation should provide an MCC course. This one is required if you got your CPL post 1 Sep 2015 or got it earlier and didn't have any multi-crew experience to date.

I didn't take the jet familiarisation course and CASA kindly didn't ask for a certificate. So..... your choice.

There is a form to download: 61-4CT which details all the documents required in terms of application. It has to be filled and signed by a training provider.
Advisory circular AC 60-02 defines approved sims and piggybacks onto CASR part 61 in terms of recognised states.
CASR Part 61.010 definitions:
recognised foreign State means any of the following:
(a) Canada;
(b) Hong Kong;
(c) New Zealand;
(d) United States of America;
(e) the following EASA member States:
(i) Belgium;
(ii) Czech Republic;
(iii) Denmark;
(iv) Finland;
(v) France;
(vi) Germany;
(vii) Ireland;
(viii) Italy;
(ix) Netherlands;
(x) Norway;
(xi) Portugal;
(xii) Spain;
(xiii) Sweden;
(xiv) Switzerland;
(xv) United Kingdom;

!!! Important stuff at the end !!!
Decide on and complete the course before 1 August 2018. Provisions for studying and doing proficiency checks abroad are set to be repealed at that time. After that - even CASA doesn't know. Talked to them recently - they have no idea how to go about it.

202.278 Grant of pilot type ratings on basis of overseas training and assessment
(1) An applicant for a pilot type rating is taken to meet the requirements of subregulation 61.810(3) (Requirements for grant of pilot type ratings) if CASA is satisfied that:
(a) the applicant has completed training, conducted by a training provider that is authorised by the national aviation authority of a recognised foreign State to conduct the training, for the grant of an overseas rating; and
(b) the applicant has been assessed, by a person who is authorised by the national aviation authority of the recognised foreign State to conduct the assessment, as meeting the flight test standard for the grant of the overseas rating; and
(c) the training meets the standards specified in the Part 61 Manual of Standards for training for the rating; and
(d) the overseas rating is at least equivalent to the rating.
(2) This regulation, and the entry for this regulation in the Part 202 table of contents, expire at the end of 31 August 2018 as if they had been repealed by another regulation.


Good luck and I hope it helps.

Comrade
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 20:07
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Hi PPSS,

It used to be fairly straight forward (didn't everything)! Just produce a record of your simulator training and evidence of the rating on your foreign licence, pay a fee, $10 the first time I did it and $75 the last time, around 10 years ago. The first time it was on the spot, over the counter at a CASA office, next one took about two weeks and in recent times people have told me that they have been quoted 55 working days! (Ah progress)

I presume by CASA you mean the CLARC office? If not, try https://www.casa.gov.au/about-us/sta...tration-centre They used to be very helpful!
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Old 14th Mar 2017, 23:44
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Another quirk (as I understand it). The FSTD has to comply with CASA requirements., not just be EASA qualified So for example, in the case of Airbus, a DDRMI needs to be installed
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 02:09
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Another thing to be careful of is "certified copies".
As with most things there is a vast disparity across casa with interpretation.
Aside from the embarrassment of casa not accepting the bona fides of training providers like Flight Safety or CAE, even though all their FOI's attend these organisations for recurrency, what exactly constitutes a "Certified copy" of certificates?
I had it suggested to me that the originals must be sighted by an Australian notary from an Australian Embassy, nearest about a thousand km away.
Flight Safety are a very helpful bunch, but even for them this was a tad over the top.
Sometimes it's embarrassing being an Australian overseas.
It's cringeworthy when your FAA examiner lays all the forms required for a simple recurrency out on the floor to photograph and send to his mates for a bit of a laugh.
CAsA have taken the finest traditions of British bureaucracy and refined it into an Art Form.

.

Last edited by thorn bird; 15th Mar 2017 at 02:20.
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 03:34
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If you use option B, don't just finish the training and get the training completion certificate, you need to have a test of competency. So make sure you complete the FAA/EASA flight test with a certified TCE (FAA) or SFE (EASA), and have the record of successful completion of that test.

Submit all to CLARC and wait about six months.............
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 08:10
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Originally Posted by thorn bird View Post
....CAsA have taken the finest traditions of British bureaucracy and refined it into an Art Form.
.
There was a point in time when after almost 6 months wait, they have told me that even though I have A320 rating just issued, I can only fly it under VFR. And that was a reply from a team lead! I almost died from laughter.


Originally Posted by thorn bird View Post
Another thing to be careful of is "certified copies".
.
In my case - they have accepted copies certified by EU notary public for initial TR issue. For recent IPC - they were ok with an email with all documents sent directly from training provider office. However I agree, it is better to check upfront.


Comrade
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 11:26
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Thank you so much for the reply guys.. really appreciate it.

To give you a bit more info on the subject I will be getting a TR on the ATR 72-500 from Bangkok. The institute is called AATC Asian Aviation Training Centre.

I spoke to CASA and the lady could not give me straight answer. At last she told me to wait until tomorrow and call her back whilst she gets more information for me.

Like ComradeRoo mentioned I will try and speak with Flight Training and Testing department .. Will keep you posted.... Thanks again
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 11:58
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ComaradeRoo thanks for the extensive reply.

Like you mentioned earlier... I cant find Thailand in the list of recognised foreign states.

Does it mean that the school in Thailand needs to have an approval from any one of the recognised states not necessarily be in an recognised state itself?
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 12:11
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Thanks mate.. I understand.

I spoke to the institute today and they said they have had 'Airline sponsored cadets' from Australia before and they have had no issues.

I will be sponsored as well from not from Australia but from a different Asian country... however I want to get the rating on my Australian license, as once I do that I can also get my overseas license as part of the TR
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 12:57
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From memory, this is what CASA require;

1. CASA Form 61 4CT(?)
2. Certificate of Completion
3. ATPL and EASA licence of the Flight Examiner (TRE) who assesses the skills test
4. Copy of training files
5. The ‘Certificate of Approval’ from the ICAO contracting state where training was carried out that authorises the training organisation to conduct the training you completed, e.g. ATO or Part 142 certificate.
6. Qualification Certificate for FSTD(s) used in skills test and training programs
7. The approval for the Examiner, issued by the NAA, indicating privileges to conduct the skills test for the issue of the aircraft rating

All copies to be certified
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Old 15th Mar 2017, 14:51
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Originally Posted by PPSS View Post
Does it mean that the school in Thailand needs to have an approval from any one of the recognised states not necessarily be in an recognised state itself?
I'm afraid, this is open to interpretation as they keep changing the wording of AC60-2 and Form 61-4CT. I did my TR in 2014 and at that time location didn't matter.
Current version of form 61-4CT states:
1. Please note that CASA can only accept type ratings, either on the basis of training and flight assessment completed overseas by an organisation in a recognised state or on recognition of an overseas licence, that are considered equivalent to the Australian type rating.
2. Flight simulators must be qualified under Part 60 of the Civil Aviation Safety Regulations, or in the case of a foreign flight simulator, it must be qualified by their relevant over-sighting National Aviation Authority (NAA). A list of NAAs that are currently recognised by CASA are outlined in AC 60-2.

On the other hand, CASA seems to be ok with ATO having EASA approval for as long as their TRE has approval from listed countries. This is something to confirm with them beforehand.
In regards to AATC. Looking at their website, it seems that they have EASA ATO approval as well as approvals for their sims. That's good. So 2 questions still remain: Does their examiner have that approval and will it fly with CASA?

Australian airline sponsored AATC cadets may have their skill test done by airline TREs, so perhaps they fall under a different set of rules. Not sure about that one. Since you will be sponsored by other than Australian airline - you'll be assessed by CASA as a private person.

Comrade
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 04:57
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Thanks again Comrade... really helpfull mate.

This is what I received from CASA today:-

"UNCLASSIFIED
Good Afternoon,

Thank you for your email.

We can confirm CASA can convert your type rating for ATR42/72 from Asian Aviation Training Centre to your CASA FCL. We would require form 61-4CT with all certified documents as per your checklist in application.

If you have any concerns please do not hesitate in contacting us.

Kind regards,"
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 05:03
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UPDATE:

Following the email I just posted above I had this to add:-

ME: Dear R******,

Thank you very much for confirming this. I just wanted to check if there is a specific need to have an “Australian Testing officer” to conduct the Final assessment at the Asian Aviation Training Centre?

Regards,


CASA:UNCLASSIFIED
Good afternoon,

Thank you for your recent communication with CASA.

I can confirm it will need to be conducted by either head of training or a delegate as stated on the form 61-4CT. Please let me know if you require any further information.


Kind regards,




Your comments please guys
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 06:39
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Your comments please guys
As alluded to in the email, it tells you on the form who can do it... if that is what you are after?
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 07:14
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Originally Posted by Capt Fathom View Post
As alluded to in the email, it tells you on the form who can do it... if that is what you are after?
No.. the issue here was if I need an Australian Testing officer or not.

Even though on the form it says :-

Certified true copy of the approval for the Examiner, issued by the NAA, indicating privilege to conduct the flight test for the issue of the aircraft rating


Does that mean any approved examiner would suffice or does it HAVE to be an Australian approved examiner?
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 07:42
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Certified true copy of the approval for the Examiner, issued by the NAA, indicating privilege to conduct the flight test for the issue of the aircraft rating
As far as CASA is concerned, isn't that an Australian approved examiner?

CASR 202.278 is mentioned at least three times on the form. You don't need to look it up as the requirements are quoted on the form.
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Old 16th Mar 2017, 07:52
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OK thanks..in which case I should be fine.
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Old 16th Aug 2017, 10:53
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Hi guys I'm new to PPRuNe and I'm not too sure how to start a new discussion.
so I found the closest thread to what I have questions on.

I have recently conducted an IR MEA Proficiency check with my CASA licence with CAE Dubai. but to get it on my licence I need to fill form 61-4p that needs to be signed by a CASA flight examiner or Delegate.
I live in Dubai, I previously held nz NZCAA licence and got it converted to CASA for the sole purpose of getting into fly Dubai. long story short I got my rating endorsed passed the fly Dubai interview and now have a start date on September 10. before which I need everything current.

have any of you guys done a CASA proficiency check overseas ? if so how did you go about it ?
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 15:23
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Originally Posted by Trexcruiz View Post
Hi guys I'm new to PPRuNe and I'm not too sure how to start a new discussion.
so I found the closest thread to what I have questions on.

I have recently conducted an IR MEA Proficiency check with my CASA licence with CAE Dubai. but to get it on my licence I need to fill form 61-4p that needs to be signed by a CASA flight examiner or Delegate.
I live in Dubai, I previously held nz NZCAA licence and got it converted to CASA for the sole purpose of getting into fly Dubai. long story short I got my rating endorsed passed the fly Dubai interview and now have a start date on September 10. before which I need everything current.

have any of you guys done a CASA proficiency check overseas ? if so how did you go about it ?
To cut a long story short, I looked in to this process about 12 months ago.

As there are no 7X simulators in Australia, I could use the 7X sim in DFW (or elsewhere) to do my instrument rating renewal. The instructors there will happily sign the paper work required for the IFR standard, however you are then needed to still do the oral component with a CASA approved examiner. He/she then is required to submit the paperwork to CLARC.

I'm now to the stage where I'm solely flying on my FAA ATP, and it has made life so much easier. The licencing branch in Oklahoma are a pleasure to deal with compared to CLARC!
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