King Air down at Essendon?
Know nothing about KingAir throttle friction nuts. Therefore showing technical ignorance here. But if its job to prevent the throttles from falling back if your hand is removed, wouldn't the pilot merely keep the two throttles up at take off power manually instead of removing his hand from there during the takeoff roll?
Power is set, barrelling down the runway. V1/positive rate (depending on your technique, I use the latter) you take your hand off the power levers, you need that hand to get the gear up. Now at this moment a lever slides back (typically the left lever), it could maybe go back half way or all the way to idle, depending on just how loose the friction is. It can happen at a rate that feels like an engine has failed, trust me on this I know, I've had it happen.
now in this moment when you think "engine failure" you should put your hands back to the power levers and realise what has happened. But instead due to the initial "oh shit" moment you grab the control wheel; thinking max power is set on the live already, auto feather has got the "failed" one covered, and away I'll fly. Nope, autofeather will not feather the prop because the system requires power lever position switches to be made- ie power lever forward (I can explain the system in more detail if you want, or search back in the thread it's already been discussed). Now you have a prop spinning at a rate that isn't providing usable, or even zero thrust. It's making a lot of drag. Your struggling to fly the plane away, focussed on the airspeed and trying to keep the wings level, and eventually your performance degrades so much that you crash.
as I said, it shouldn't happen. But humans make mistakes and mishandle aircraft, so being forewarned about it can maybe save someone in the future. As I said in my initial post on this subject, I'm not suggesting this is the cause of this accident. I rather brought it up so that people who didn't know about it learnt about it.
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was this the first flight after maintenance?
we use the friction controls during engine runs after maintenance
Car RAMROD
Thanks for that description. Combine it with another distraction and it's easy to see things turning nasty.
For example,
Thanks for that description. Combine it with another distraction and it's easy to see things turning nasty.
For example,
Jay Hook?I wonder if the J Hook did not disengage - so the gear was physically blocked from being selected up?
It's plausible to imagine the pilot getting distracted by the stuck gear and fumbling for the J Hook release. In this scenario he would have his head inside the cockpit - and hand off the power levers. This would be the worst time to experience a power lever creep back, or a sudden power lever closure, as discussed earlier in this thread.
It's a horrible thought - a nightmare- to imagine looking up in this situation to see you are low level, low speed, off the runway centre line and diverging towards the buildings.
It's plausible to imagine the pilot getting distracted by the stuck gear and fumbling for the J Hook release. In this scenario he would have his head inside the cockpit - and hand off the power levers. This would be the worst time to experience a power lever creep back, or a sudden power lever closure, as discussed earlier in this thread.
It's a horrible thought - a nightmare- to imagine looking up in this situation to see you are low level, low speed, off the runway centre line and diverging towards the buildings.
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Ramrod, well described, usually the left side as you say. Combine your scenario, a newish KA pilot and a J Hook event and it could very easily get nasty. From my obs older KA pilots are very aware of the J Hook, new ones not so much. Same goes for hand on throttles, older ones tended to remain with throttles after V1 - gear up, With sim experience hand now goes to controls at V1 leaving the roll back unguarded. I don’t know what happened but this is one way of trying to figure it out.
I can believe that in either a real failure situation, or a power lever slide back, that a dodgy J hook would create an extra distraction.
Adding a slide back and a dodgy J hook together in the one scenario, whilst unlikely, should be easily overcome by just pushing the power lever back up and holding it there, climbing, then sorting the whole thing out. But once again, that's predicated on the person realising what has happened in the first place.
Holding, if newer pilots aren't aware of the J hook then the training for their rating, and their subsequent lack of revision about the aircraft, has been substandard.
Adding a slide back and a dodgy J hook together in the one scenario, whilst unlikely, should be easily overcome by just pushing the power lever back up and holding it there, climbing, then sorting the whole thing out. But once again, that's predicated on the person realising what has happened in the first place.
Holding, if newer pilots aren't aware of the J hook then the training for their rating, and their subsequent lack of revision about the aircraft, has been substandard.
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so clearly nothing to do with Maintence with respect to friction knobs.
J hook is controlled by the gear wow switch. Once wow is achieved the the J hook is moved out of position and the hook is retracted and the lever can moved.
J hook is controlled by the gear wow switch. Once wow is achieved the the J hook is moved out of position and the hook is retracted and the lever can moved.
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Pre-War and Post War RAF and RAAF training on Pilots Courses and indeed at aero clubs, it was drummed into pilots to never take your hand off the throttle(s) during take off and initial climb; no matter what type of aircraft, single or multi. That may have been because early aeroplanes like the Tiger Moth and the Dakota DC3 had dodgy friction nuts which could allow the throttles to slip back, unless the friction nut was set real tight.. Also, it was the rationale behind co-pilots being taught to back-up the throttles under the captain's hand just in case the fiction nut was poorly maintained.
Of course, If the captain slammed the throttles closed for an abort the co-pilot risk a multi fingers amputation if he failed to removed his hand in time. A one handed rotation or lift-off was made with no adverse handling problems. Nowadays, this advice has long since been superseded so that in airliners, the thinking is the hand is removed from the throttles at V1 and both hands used to pull back the control wheel. . Not on the Airbus series of course which has a computer game stick. . There are a myriad of reasons, lost in antiquity, offered for the two handed rotation policy, with most of the reasons being personal opinions. One theory being so the pilot is not tempted to abort the take off after passing V1. How superstitious is that?
Of course, If the captain slammed the throttles closed for an abort the co-pilot risk a multi fingers amputation if he failed to removed his hand in time. A one handed rotation or lift-off was made with no adverse handling problems. Nowadays, this advice has long since been superseded so that in airliners, the thinking is the hand is removed from the throttles at V1 and both hands used to pull back the control wheel. . Not on the Airbus series of course which has a computer game stick. . There are a myriad of reasons, lost in antiquity, offered for the two handed rotation policy, with most of the reasons being personal opinions. One theory being so the pilot is not tempted to abort the take off after passing V1. How superstitious is that?
Why do posters keep referring to V1 in this thread
601
Posters keep referring to V speeds because many King Airs have an STC allowing operations above 12,500. Therefore operating under 20.7.2B - V speeds do apply.
Reference friction locks - what about the check in the before takeoff checklist - "Friction locks .......Set." ??
Posters keep referring to V speeds because many King Airs have an STC allowing operations above 12,500. Therefore operating under 20.7.2B - V speeds do apply.
Reference friction locks - what about the check in the before takeoff checklist - "Friction locks .......Set." ??
Posters keep referring to V speeds because many King Airs have an STC allowing operations above 12,500.
But with this particular King Air??
Mr Peabody, given the occupation of the passengers, I would not be in the least bit surprised that this report will have every T crossed and every i dotted.
Maybe the powers that be did learn something from Norfolk Island after all.
Maybe the powers that be did learn something from Norfolk Island after all.
Translation: Maybe around February 2019.
Under 2 years would be surprisingly ‘efficient’ for the contemporary ATSB. Fortunately the blancmanges they produce rarely contribute beneficially to the collective wisdom.
The litigation will be interesting to say the least.
Under 2 years would be surprisingly ‘efficient’ for the contemporary ATSB. Fortunately the blancmanges they produce rarely contribute beneficially to the collective wisdom.
The litigation will be interesting to say the least.
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I’ve had the friction lock thing happen to me..single pilot..it sure as hell focuses your attention..I spoke to the engineer in question about it but he still does it from time to time. Always after CX wash drying runs.
