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King Air down at Essendon?

Old 14th May 2018, 23:32
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Originally Posted by sheppey
Know nothing about KingAir throttle friction nuts. Therefore showing technical ignorance here. But if its job to prevent the throttles from falling back if your hand is removed, wouldn't the pilot merely keep the two throttles up at take off power manually instead of removing his hand from there during the takeoff roll?
Basically, yes. Although at some stage, as mentioned previously, your hand comes off the power levers so that you can raise the gear. Whether you do this at V1 or some other point depends on the way you operate it. The simple fix for when the lever slides back is to put your hand back on the lever and push it forward again, gain some altitude then tighten it up and get back to normal flight. This is why I say "it shouldn't happen", but stick with me here and the following scenario highlights how it can.

Power is set, barrelling down the runway. V1/positive rate (depending on your technique, I use the latter) you take your hand off the power levers, you need that hand to get the gear up. Now at this moment a lever slides back (typically the left lever), it could maybe go back half way or all the way to idle, depending on just how loose the friction is. It can happen at a rate that feels like an engine has failed, trust me on this I know, I've had it happen.
now in this moment when you think "engine failure" you should put your hands back to the power levers and realise what has happened. But instead due to the initial "oh shit" moment you grab the control wheel; thinking max power is set on the live already, auto feather has got the "failed" one covered, and away I'll fly. Nope, autofeather will not feather the prop because the system requires power lever position switches to be made- ie power lever forward (I can explain the system in more detail if you want, or search back in the thread it's already been discussed). Now you have a prop spinning at a rate that isn't providing usable, or even zero thrust. It's making a lot of drag. Your struggling to fly the plane away, focussed on the airspeed and trying to keep the wings level, and eventually your performance degrades so much that you crash.

as I said, it shouldn't happen. But humans make mistakes and mishandle aircraft, so being forewarned about it can maybe save someone in the future. As I said in my initial post on this subject, I'm not suggesting this is the cause of this accident. I rather brought it up so that people who didn't know about it learnt about it.
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Old 15th May 2018, 03:02
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Originally Posted by kellykelpie
Heard today that thereís little doubt by those in the know that itís friction locks. After maintenance, if the locks are loose, the left throttle retards causing a bank to the left. Similar accident in the US recently. One every 10 years I was told...

was this the first flight after maintenance?
we use the friction controls during engine runs after maintenance
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Old 15th May 2018, 03:52
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Not the first flight after maintenance. But maybe second or third.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:09
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Car RAMROD
Thanks for that description. Combine it with another distraction and it's easy to see things turning nasty.

For example,

Jay Hook?I wonder if the J Hook did not disengage - so the gear was physically blocked from being selected up?

It's plausible to imagine the pilot getting distracted by the stuck gear and fumbling for the J Hook release. In this scenario he would have his head inside the cockpit - and hand off the power levers. This would be the worst time to experience a power lever creep back, or a sudden power lever closure, as discussed earlier in this thread.

It's a horrible thought - a nightmare- to imagine looking up in this situation to see you are low level, low speed, off the runway centre line and diverging towards the buildings.
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Old 15th May 2018, 04:38
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Ramrod, well described, usually the left side as you say. Combine your scenario, a newish KA pilot and a J Hook event and it could very easily get nasty. From my obs older KA pilots are very aware of the J Hook, new ones not so much. Same goes for hand on throttles, older ones tended to remain with throttles after V1 - gear up, With sim experience hand now goes to controls at V1 leaving the roll back unguarded. I donít know what happened but this is one way of trying to figure it out.
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Old 15th May 2018, 05:30
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I can believe that in either a real failure situation, or a power lever slide back, that a dodgy J hook would create an extra distraction.

Adding a slide back and a dodgy J hook together in the one scenario, whilst unlikely, should be easily overcome by just pushing the power lever back up and holding it there, climbing, then sorting the whole thing out. But once again, that's predicated on the person realising what has happened in the first place.

Holding, if newer pilots aren't aware of the J hook then the training for their rating, and their subsequent lack of revision about the aircraft, has been substandard.
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Old 15th May 2018, 07:26
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Originally Posted by Old Akro
Not the first flight after maintenance. But maybe second or third.
so clearly nothing to do with Maintence with respect to friction knobs.
J hook is controlled by the gear wow switch. Once wow is achieved the the J hook is moved out of position and the hook is retracted and the lever can moved.
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Old 15th May 2018, 16:16
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Pre-War and Post War RAF and RAAF training on Pilots Courses and indeed at aero clubs, it was drummed into pilots to never take your hand off the throttle(s) during take off and initial climb; no matter what type of aircraft, single or multi. That may have been because early aeroplanes like the Tiger Moth and the Dakota DC3 had dodgy friction nuts which could allow the throttles to slip back, unless the friction nut was set real tight.. Also, it was the rationale behind co-pilots being taught to back-up the throttles under the captain's hand just in case the fiction nut was poorly maintained.

Of course, If the captain slammed the throttles closed for an abort the co-pilot risk a multi fingers amputation if he failed to removed his hand in time. A one handed rotation or lift-off was made with no adverse handling problems. Nowadays, this advice has long since been superseded so that in airliners, the thinking is the hand is removed from the throttles at V1 and both hands used to pull back the control wheel. . Not on the Airbus series of course which has a computer game stick. . There are a myriad of reasons, lost in antiquity, offered for the two handed rotation policy, with most of the reasons being personal opinions. One theory being so the pilot is not tempted to abort the take off after passing V1. How superstitious is that?
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Old 28th May 2018, 23:06
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The ATSB has updated the expected completion of the final report to 3rd Quarter 2018; status is still at internal review.
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Old 28th May 2018, 23:33
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Why do posters keep referring to V1 in this thread. We are dealing with a Part 23 aeroplane not a Part 25 aeroplane. V1/V2 do not apply.
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Old 29th May 2018, 04:02
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Why do posters keep referring to V1 in this thread
Although the Raisbeck King Air is FAR 23, the flight manual does provide all the data you expect for FAR 25, V1 etc. Increasingly common for FAR 23 turboprops manuals to be so provided.
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Old 29th May 2018, 08:10
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601
Posters keep referring to V speeds because many King Airs have an STC allowing operations above 12,500. Therefore operating under 20.7.2B - V speeds do apply.

Reference friction locks - what about the check in the before takeoff checklist - "Friction locks .......Set." ??
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Old 30th May 2018, 00:00
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Posters keep referring to V speeds because many King Airs have an STC allowing operations above 12,500.
I am well aware of this having flown all the Kingair models.
But with this particular King Air??
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Old 30th May 2018, 01:17
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Mr Peabody, given the occupation of the passengers, I would not be in the least bit surprised that this report will have every T crossed and every i dotted.

Maybe the powers that be did learn something from Norfolk Island after all.
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Old 30th May 2018, 03:44
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But with this particular King Air?
It had the Raisbeck mods so the manual would include the figures for FAR 25 standards as an option for you to use if so desired.
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Old 10th Sep 2018, 06:06
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The ATSB has again pushed expected completion from 3rd to 4th quarter 2018; status is now Final Report: Approval Phase.
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Old 10th Sep 2018, 08:56
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Translation: Maybe around February 2019.

Under 2 years would be surprisingly ‘efficient’ for the contemporary ATSB. Fortunately the blancmanges they produce rarely contribute beneficially to the collective wisdom.

The litigation will be interesting to say the least.
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Old 10th Sep 2018, 10:25
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But the litigation cannot be based on anything presented in the final report, they will have to collect their own evidence or wait for the coronial.
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Old 10th Sep 2018, 10:28
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Iíve had the friction lock thing happen to me..single pilot..it sure as hell focuses your attention..I spoke to the engineer in question about it but he still does it from time to time. Always after CX wash drying runs.
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Old 10th Sep 2018, 13:19
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I'm hearing rumours suggesting that diligently checking the trims before takeoff would be a very good idea.
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