AVDATA landing fees - automatic from CTAF calls?
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Location: Victoria
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Kaz:
Depends on who you define as "customers". My relatives in the justice profession have very mixed views and are frustrated by the system. One applies to the court to get someone locked up and finds him back on the street selling drugs Two days later.
...And don't start me on the Sudanese....
Depends on who you define as "customers". My relatives in the justice profession have very mixed views and are frustrated by the system. One applies to the court to get someone locked up and finds him back on the street selling drugs Two days later.
...And don't start me on the Sudanese....
It's the role of enforcement authorities to charge and prosecute offences; the role of the judiciary to sentence the offenders to punishment according to law; and the role of the administrative n to carry the punishment out.
It's the parliament that makes the laws and, again, our democracy was built on fundamental tights established in the Magna Carta which include a presumption of innocence.
Sometimes, some of the players and the Murdock press forget this.
Kaz
Dick Smith said:
Mein Gott 
There is something we do better here in aviation ...
I reckon the avdata way is a lot better than the European system where a pilot has to seek out a person to pay at each airport before departing
There is something we do better here in aviation ...
Midnight,
Not much but the weather!!.
Sad, really, and not new.
I started flying in UK about 55+ years ago, while I was working there, didn't find out how complicated flying was until I got home, and Oh!! Boy!!, hasn't it gone downhill since then.
Tootle pip!!
Not much but the weather!!.
Sad, really, and not new.
I started flying in UK about 55+ years ago, while I was working there, didn't find out how complicated flying was until I got home, and Oh!! Boy!!, hasn't it gone downhill since then.
Tootle pip!!
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Kaz might be able to tackle this one:
I buy a product or service from KazCo.
But KazCo engages some other entity to bill me for it later, under their name, not KazCo.
What it my obligation to pay this other entity for the thing I bought from KazCo?
Does it depend on whether KazCo tells me that at sale that I'll be billed by this other entity for "item bought from KazCo."?
And what if I prefer to pay direct to KazCo?
Thanks in advance Kaz.
I buy a product or service from KazCo.
But KazCo engages some other entity to bill me for it later, under their name, not KazCo.
What it my obligation to pay this other entity for the thing I bought from KazCo?
Does it depend on whether KazCo tells me that at sale that I'll be billed by this other entity for "item bought from KazCo."?
And what if I prefer to pay direct to KazCo?
Thanks in advance Kaz.
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Victoria
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Kaz might be able to tackle this one:
I buy a product or service from KazCo.
But KazCo engages some other entity to bill me for it later, under their name, not KazCo.
What it my obligation to pay this other entity for the thing I bought from KazCo?
Does it depend on whether KazCo tells me that at sale that I'll be billed by this other entity for "item bought from KazCo."?
And what if I prefer to pay direct to KazCo?
Thanks in advance Kaz.
I buy a product or service from KazCo.
But KazCo engages some other entity to bill me for it later, under their name, not KazCo.
What it my obligation to pay this other entity for the thing I bought from KazCo?
Does it depend on whether KazCo tells me that at sale that I'll be billed by this other entity for "item bought from KazCo."?
And what if I prefer to pay direct to KazCo?
Thanks in advance Kaz.
My insurance doesn't cover me to give you the advice you are seeking so you need to draw your own conclusions. I recommend you seek advice from a lawyer in the finance area especially if you are considering non-payment against demands.
Kaz
Kaz
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I thought the Australian Communications and Media Authority regulations did not permit the unauthorised interception of radio calls, but I've not been able to find it in any legislation. If it were so, AVDATA's data harvesting could be stopped dead.
The matter of expecting the aviation community to bear the onus of sorting out incorrect charges would be eliminated if users notified AVDATA that a minimum $50 back-charge would be levied for administrative time, and would be deducted from any current or future charges.
Airports are an asset to the community they serve providing access for business and tourism, medical evacuation, urgent freight etc. Imagine if the local council photographed number plates and sent a bill every time a car or truck rolled through town for "so called access".
The matter of expecting the aviation community to bear the onus of sorting out incorrect charges would be eliminated if users notified AVDATA that a minimum $50 back-charge would be levied for administrative time, and would be deducted from any current or future charges.
Airports are an asset to the community they serve providing access for business and tourism, medical evacuation, urgent freight etc. Imagine if the local council photographed number plates and sent a bill every time a car or truck rolled through town for "so called access".
Back charge of $50...great idea. Would counteract the over due charge.
Do Avdata still do this.?, With an overdue bill for $23.50...the invoice having turned up while away for months...the overdue fee of $50 was addded every time, so on return bill now owed 223.50 !! Nice work if you can get it .
A BIG RED TEXTA comment put paid to that.
I honestly dont think I ever had an Avdata bill that wasnt riddled with errors...$s for places never lobbed in to, or parked up where I wasnt.
So check yr docket ! Carefully.
Do Avdata still do this.?, With an overdue bill for $23.50...the invoice having turned up while away for months...the overdue fee of $50 was addded every time, so on return bill now owed 223.50 !! Nice work if you can get it .
A BIG RED TEXTA comment put paid to that.
I honestly dont think I ever had an Avdata bill that wasnt riddled with errors...$s for places never lobbed in to, or parked up where I wasnt.
So check yr docket ! Carefully.
I thought the Australian Communications and Media Authority regulations did not permit the unauthorised interception of radio calls, but I've not been able to find it in any legislation. If it were so, AVDATA's data harvesting could be stopped dead.
Very few radio communications have restrictions imposed on being monitored. One is telephone calls and associated communications, covered by a telecommunications act or acts I believe.
Radio communications can be legally listened to, including police, fire, ambos, military etc. etc. Some such services are encrypted these days anyway. Then of course there are ADS-B receivers -
There are thousands of radio scanners out there - many sold by DICK SMITH ELECTRONICS
- plus online streaming.
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Back charge of $50...great idea. Would counteract the over due charge.
Do Avdata still do this.?, With an overdue bill for $23.50...the invoice having turned up while away for months...the overdue fee of $50 was addded every time, so on return bill now owed 223.50 !! Nice work if you can get it .
A BIG RED TEXTA comment put paid to that.
I honestly dont think I ever had an Avdata bill that wasnt riddled with errors...$s for places never lobbed in to, or parked up where I wasnt.
So check yr docket ! Carefully.
Do Avdata still do this.?, With an overdue bill for $23.50...the invoice having turned up while away for months...the overdue fee of $50 was addded every time, so on return bill now owed 223.50 !! Nice work if you can get it .
A BIG RED TEXTA comment put paid to that.
I honestly dont think I ever had an Avdata bill that wasnt riddled with errors...$s for places never lobbed in to, or parked up where I wasnt.
So check yr docket ! Carefully.
Just make sure you Ma,e the required payments on your credit card.
https://www.claytonutz.com/knowledge...ays-high-court
Kaz
Avdata sucks data from submitted flight plans as well. If you submit a plan that includes a place that charges, you’ll get a charge even if you end up not going anywhere near the place.
However, Avdata has always reversed these charges, on request, if I explain that things did not go in accordance with the plan.
Avdata has also always reversed the errors. Avdata understands I can’t be at place X on the East coast one day and place Y on the West coast in a bugsmasher.
However, Avdata has always reversed these charges, on request, if I explain that things did not go in accordance with the plan.
Avdata has also always reversed the errors. Avdata understands I can’t be at place X on the East coast one day and place Y on the West coast in a bugsmasher.
Avdata sucks data from submitted flight plans as well. If you submit a plan that includes a place that charges, you’ll get a charge even if you end up not going anywhere near the place.
However, Avdata has always reversed these charges, on request, if I explain that things did not go in accordance with the plan.
Avdata has also always reversed the errors. Avdata understands I can’t be at place X on the East coast one day and place Y on the West coast in a bugsmasher.
However, Avdata has always reversed these charges, on request, if I explain that things did not go in accordance with the plan.
Avdata has also always reversed the errors. Avdata understands I can’t be at place X on the East coast one day and place Y on the West coast in a bugsmasher.
But by the tone of your post, it sounds like you have spent considerable time advising AvData of their mistakes. So who reimburses LB for his time spent advising AvData of their screwups?
By the time you've driven to the hangar to check the logbook (have to make sure it wasn't one of your mates who flew to BumPhuck, WA), driven home, composed a letter, driven to the post office, purchased a stamp and dropped off the letter in a postbox, that's an awful lot of our time that AvData would have to reimburse, surely?
If AvData is required to provide an error-free invoice, then until they provide one, irrespective of how long that takes, I won't be doing sweet FA to help them out.
That’s a very good and valid point, KRviator.
I’d be happy to pay twice the amount I’m charged each year (legitimately or otherwise) so as to avoid the AvData correspondence bureaucratic distraction, entirely.
The good news is that, like the regulatory reform program that’s going to make things simple and cheap, the GST is going to replace all the ad hoc and inefficient charges. In other words, GA in Australia is completely f*cked.
I’d be happy to pay twice the amount I’m charged each year (legitimately or otherwise) so as to avoid the AvData correspondence bureaucratic distraction, entirely.
The good news is that, like the regulatory reform program that’s going to make things simple and cheap, the GST is going to replace all the ad hoc and inefficient charges. In other words, GA in Australia is completely f*cked.
Join Date: Nov 2013
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To add fuel to the fire.... Have emailed Dept Infrastructure this:
Hello Leonie,
Could you please pass this onto the relevant person/team – I could not work out from the Department’s web site who to ask.
I am an IFR pilot (I live in Canberra and have an aircraft hangered here), as such for currency and competency reasons, on a weekly basis undertake “practice” IFR flights which include “practice approaches” to aerodromes – the nature of the ratings and endorsements on my licence require I conduct 2D and 3D approaches.
Recently I conducted such a flight and conducted an RNAV (a GPS guided approach) approach to a local aerodrome (in class G airspace, with no tower) and at the appropriate point (682 feet above ground) executed a missed approach procedure (which is normal in a practice scenario where you do not wish to land). I did not land, I stated on the local CTAF frequency I did not land. I then returned to Canberra and executed an ILS approach and landed.
A period after, as part of an AVDATA bill (Avdata being a company that collects landing fees on behalf of the aerodrome operator) I was charged for landing at the aerodrome at which I conducted the missed approach. I queried this and was told:
“Thank you for your email. I have listened to the recordings and can confirm that one of the charges is definitely a Practice Approach. However, Cooma Airport does charge for Practice Approaches (it is the same as a landing charge).
Therefore, unfortunately the charges still remain.”
There is no mention of charging for practice approaches at Cooma in the AirServices ERSA and I, and the pilot community is not aware of anywhere else where the operator charges for a practice approach where the wheels do not touch the ground – ATC charges are of course wrapped into AirServices Australia charges.
Before I make a major issue of it, I have scanned the legislation and material on the Internet, but I am by no means an expert of finding such information! I am trying to determine if the aerodrome operator is entitled in law to charge for effectively “over flying” the aerodrome! If they are, I and the pilot community would like to understand the parameters around such charges – is it height based, or distance based?
I would like some clarification from the Department on this matter.
Thank you
Jason Moore
Hello Leonie,
Could you please pass this onto the relevant person/team – I could not work out from the Department’s web site who to ask.
I am an IFR pilot (I live in Canberra and have an aircraft hangered here), as such for currency and competency reasons, on a weekly basis undertake “practice” IFR flights which include “practice approaches” to aerodromes – the nature of the ratings and endorsements on my licence require I conduct 2D and 3D approaches.
Recently I conducted such a flight and conducted an RNAV (a GPS guided approach) approach to a local aerodrome (in class G airspace, with no tower) and at the appropriate point (682 feet above ground) executed a missed approach procedure (which is normal in a practice scenario where you do not wish to land). I did not land, I stated on the local CTAF frequency I did not land. I then returned to Canberra and executed an ILS approach and landed.
A period after, as part of an AVDATA bill (Avdata being a company that collects landing fees on behalf of the aerodrome operator) I was charged for landing at the aerodrome at which I conducted the missed approach. I queried this and was told:
“Thank you for your email. I have listened to the recordings and can confirm that one of the charges is definitely a Practice Approach. However, Cooma Airport does charge for Practice Approaches (it is the same as a landing charge).
Therefore, unfortunately the charges still remain.”
There is no mention of charging for practice approaches at Cooma in the AirServices ERSA and I, and the pilot community is not aware of anywhere else where the operator charges for a practice approach where the wheels do not touch the ground – ATC charges are of course wrapped into AirServices Australia charges.
Before I make a major issue of it, I have scanned the legislation and material on the Internet, but I am by no means an expert of finding such information! I am trying to determine if the aerodrome operator is entitled in law to charge for effectively “over flying” the aerodrome! If they are, I and the pilot community would like to understand the parameters around such charges – is it height based, or distance based?
I would like some clarification from the Department on this matter.
Thank you
Jason Moore
Ha! Try a “practice approach” into e.g. Goulburn or Orange.
Save your energy: This has nothing to do with the Dept of Infrastructure.
It’s an argument between you and the operators of the aerodrome/s. They say, in effect, that your practice approach is a use of their aerodrome, because your practice approach results in a benefit to you and also affects other users who may have to adjust their approach or departure to fit around you.
Save your energy: This has nothing to do with the Dept of Infrastructure.
It’s an argument between you and the operators of the aerodrome/s. They say, in effect, that your practice approach is a use of their aerodrome, because your practice approach results in a benefit to you and also affects other users who may have to adjust their approach or departure to fit around you.
I look forward to hearing the reply JM.
I would basically tell Avdata to get knicked and casually mention you are engaging a QC to act on your behalf.
Maybe something AOPA could look at.
I would basically tell Avdata to get knicked and casually mention you are engaging a QC to act on your behalf.
Maybe something AOPA could look at.
Join Date: Apr 2011
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AVDATA is a privately owned business that appears to have little scruples in regards to making money. Their methodology is to bill first and hope no one complains. We had an AVDATA data recorder at the airfield about 13 years ago, despite telling them not to bill certain aircraft they did anyway, we then discontinued the service but they still sent bills out! (money was sent to someone else, not us, and took a bit of digging to unravel the situation). Took legal action before we finally got rid of them.
It was very disheartening to hear that RA-Aus would no longer pass on accounts for landing fees but recommended registering with AVDATA! Running a private airfield is VERY expensive, council owned ones should be a bit cheaper (no rates etc, more equipment etc) so I do not begrudge landing fees at all, but if I can I prefer to deal directly with the airfield rather than through AVDATA.
It was very disheartening to hear that RA-Aus would no longer pass on accounts for landing fees but recommended registering with AVDATA! Running a private airfield is VERY expensive, council owned ones should be a bit cheaper (no rates etc, more equipment etc) so I do not begrudge landing fees at all, but if I can I prefer to deal directly with the airfield rather than through AVDATA.
Any body sick of being gouged by Councils might be interested in joining the Regional Airports Users Action Group on Facebook.
Kaz
Join Date: Apr 2011
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To add fuel to the fire.... Have emailed Dept Infrastructure this:
Hello Leonie,
Could you please pass this onto the relevant person/team – I could not work out from the Department’s web site who to ask.
I am an IFR pilot (I live in Canberra and have an aircraft hangered here), as such for currency and competency reasons, on a weekly basis undertake “practice” IFR flights which include “practice approaches” to aerodromes – the nature of the ratings and endorsements on my licence require I conduct 2D and 3D approaches.
Recently I conducted such a flight and conducted an RNAV (a GPS guided approach) approach to a local aerodrome (in class G airspace, with no tower) and at the appropriate point (682 feet above ground) executed a missed approach procedure (which is normal in a practice scenario where you do not wish to land). I did not land, I stated on the local CTAF frequency I did not land. I then returned to Canberra and executed an ILS approach and landed.
A period after, as part of an AVDATA bill (Avdata being a company that collects landing fees on behalf of the aerodrome operator) I was charged for landing at the aerodrome at which I conducted the missed approach. I queried this and was told:
“Thank you for your email. I have listened to the recordings and can confirm that one of the charges is definitely a Practice Approach. However, Cooma Airport does charge for Practice Approaches (it is the same as a landing charge).
Therefore, unfortunately the charges still remain.”
Hello Leonie,
Could you please pass this onto the relevant person/team – I could not work out from the Department’s web site who to ask.
I am an IFR pilot (I live in Canberra and have an aircraft hangered here), as such for currency and competency reasons, on a weekly basis undertake “practice” IFR flights which include “practice approaches” to aerodromes – the nature of the ratings and endorsements on my licence require I conduct 2D and 3D approaches.
Recently I conducted such a flight and conducted an RNAV (a GPS guided approach) approach to a local aerodrome (in class G airspace, with no tower) and at the appropriate point (682 feet above ground) executed a missed approach procedure (which is normal in a practice scenario where you do not wish to land). I did not land, I stated on the local CTAF frequency I did not land. I then returned to Canberra and executed an ILS approach and landed.
A period after, as part of an AVDATA bill (Avdata being a company that collects landing fees on behalf of the aerodrome operator) I was charged for landing at the aerodrome at which I conducted the missed approach. I queried this and was told:
“Thank you for your email. I have listened to the recordings and can confirm that one of the charges is definitely a Practice Approach. However, Cooma Airport does charge for Practice Approaches (it is the same as a landing charge).
Therefore, unfortunately the charges still remain.”
It's a dispute about goods and services so you can take it to the NSW tribunal under Fair Trading/Consumer Law. Small fee and you can self represent. I'd love to hear the result if you do this.
Kaz
Isn’t this a dispute about access to property, Kaz?
Who owns the airspace above a piece of land?
Who owns the airspace above a piece of land?
Last edited by Lead Balloon; 13th Feb 2018 at 03:52.
Thread from 2002
This is what happened in 2003
The Act
....even wrote a nice letter for what little good it did.
This is what happened in 2003
The Act
....even wrote a nice letter for what little good it did.