Greens want to Ban over flights of Melbourne

[doublemamba]

Hello fellow aviators and all that

I want to ban the garden state greens ever flying out and over Melbourne, lest they infect the rest of us with 'safe schools' and other marxist crap
I am off to my safe space now

[thorn bird]

All this sounds like the Bat issue in Queensland where bats have taken up residence in some towns. Greens say move the town rather than the bats.
Maybe they should move the Melbourne CBD, certainly if the river is about to spontaneously combust.

[Squawk7700]

Dick, there are no continuous helicopter joy flights to be stopped in Melbourne. They are random and indistinguishable from day to day helicopter movements, which have operated from the Yarra helipads for about 40 years. Your research will show you that.

Dick is spot on John. There are near continuous joy flights from the Yarra on a daily basis; not all day but enough to be annoying. I counted more than half a dozen yesterday (a Thursday) when I was there for around one hour. Depending on where you are standing, you literally need to pause your conversation whilst they warm up and depart.

Microflite operate up to two EC130's (or smaller) from the one pad just down from the World Trade Centre and PHS were operating a Jetranger which flew multiple times from the council heliport opposite Crown. Microflite even operate a 130 in full red and gold Crown Casino livery.

(I know you are aware of the finer details JE, just noting them for Dick and others)

In all honesty, the operation of these helicopters doesn't seem to be in-line with a fully risk-adverse approach. I haven't spotted any warning signs regarding the coexistence of boats and helicopters where the helicopters lift off and literally reverse out over the river regardless of what is below and plaster them with full downwash from a 130 or similar.

JE - can you please elaborate on why the operators of the council pad don't allow R44's to land, or advise against it, don't allow it or otherwise? (Correct me if I am wrong of course)

[John Eacott]

Originally Posted by Squawk7700

Dick is spot on John. There are near continuous joy flights from the Yarra on a daily basis; not all day but enough to be annoying. I counted more than half a dozen yesterday (a Thursday) when I was there for around one hour. Depending on where you are standing, you literally need to pause your conversation whilst they warm up and depart.

Microflite operate up to two EC130's (or smaller) from the one pad just down from the World Trade Centre and PHS were operating a Jetranger which flew multiple times from the council heliport opposite Crown. Microflite even operate a 130 in full red and gold Crown Casino livery.

(I know you are aware of the finer details JE, just noting them for Dick and others)

In all honesty, the operation of these helicopters doesn't seem to be in-line with a fully risk-adverse approach. I haven't spotted any warning signs regarding the coexistence of boats and helicopters where the helicopters lift off and literally reverse out over the river regardless of what is below and plaster them with full downwash from a 130 or similar.

JE - can you please elaborate on why the operators of the council pad don't allow R44's to land, or advise against it, don't allow it or otherwise? (Correct me if I am wrong of course)

First, I would certainly not class half a dozen flights in an hour on the Thursday before Christmas to be 'continuous' and nor were they necessarily scenic flights. My op from the Yarra Bank helipad yesterday was a photographic job over Southbank.

Stopping once every ten minutes for a helicopter takeoff is nothing compared to the loud music from the restaurants across the river on the Southbank Boulevard, which were able to be clearly heard at the pad! This is not a 'daily operation' but a seasonal surge of flying in good weather close to a public holiday; come along in wintertime and there may be days between flights.

Risk averse? Well, I guess if there were no operations that may satisfy the NIMBYs and be as risk averse as possible, along with having a man (or gender neutral person of indeterminate biological creation) walk with a red flag in front of every car, bike and bus. This is an aviation forum, flying has an intrinsic risk which is managed within degrees. The flight path is overwater and with minimum risk to those along the Yarra River, including the pleasure craft who also manage to avoid ramming and sinking each other. The pad meanwhile, has been there for some 40 years.

Absolutely no idea what you are referencing with your query about council pads: there aren't any that I know of. They are all private pads along the Yarra River, and what they choose to operate or allow to operate is their commercial decision.

[Squawk7700]

Isn't the one opposite Crown Casino council owned, but operated by a third party - is it Heliserv, formerly managed by MicroFlite? This is the one I was advised that doesn't allow 44's.

Admittedly the MF pads were far more utilized yesterday than the other one, with a string of mostly foreign tourists lining up for a jolly.

As for risk, I would rather be enjoying my pleasure craft on the river (making limited noise) and not have a helicopter blindly reverse over me 30ft above my head. I'm not an informed aviation participant in this instance.


Note: This video has nothing to do with any reversing "incident"

https://youtu.be/tN3Ejs7mIw8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Y2LojhEgM

Stopping once every ten minutes for a helicopter takeoff is nothing compared to the loud music from the restaurants across the river on the Southbank Boulevard, which were able to be clearly heard at the pad!

The problem is that people enjoy music as it's entertaining. Some spinning helicopter blades and a turbine engine whining away for 5 minutes at a time plus takeoff is unfortunately only entertaining for those international tourists sitting in the cabin wearing a Bose headset.

I'm a pilot and have been for quite a few years and I can see both sides of the argument. For people here to suggest that air traffic in the CBD is not noisy, are barking up the wrong tree and have probably rarely even been in there.

[John Eacott]

Originally Posted by Squawk7700

Isn't the one opposite Crown Casino council owned, but operated by a third party - is it Heliserv, formerly managed by MicroFlite? This is the one I was advised that doesn't allow 44's.

Admittedly the MF pads were far more utilized yesterday than the other one, with a string of mostly foreign tourists lining up for a jolly.

As for risk, I would rather be enjoying my pleasure craft on the river (making limited noise) and not have a helicopter blindly reverse over me 30ft above my head. I'm not an informed aviation participant in this instance.


Note: This video has nothing to do with any reversing "incident"

https://youtu.be/tN3Ejs7mIw8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5Y2LojhEgM



The problem is that people enjoy music as it's entertaining. Some spinning helicopter blades and a turbine engine whining away for 5 minutes at a time plus takeoff is unfortunately only entertaining for those international tourists sitting in the cabin wearing a Bose headset.

I'm a pilot and have been for quite a few years and I can see both sides of the argument. For people here to suggest that air traffic in the CBD is not noisy, are barking up the wrong tree and have probably rarely even been in there.

I've been operating to the Yarra Bank for about 35 years, no idea how many thousands of landings I've done and this is the first time I've been faced with a pilot proposing a misinformed load of twaddle to uphold a beef against the operations.

First, the videos that you link show perfectly safe and standard helipad departures with no intrusion on any river traffic. A helipad takeoff keeping the pad visible through the chin window ensures a safe return to the pad before decision point should an emergency require it, plus the EC130s shown have flotation gear for an emergency landing on the water.

The helipads are owned by the operators: PHS for the Yarra Bank helipad and Microflite for the World Trade Centre pad. When it was a single pad I had an engine failure on finals and plonked it down quite happily, so there is proof that the operations follow a set, standard and safe procedure. The lease for the river is with a number of state government bodies, no council involvement.

As for risk, I would rather be enjoying my pleasure craft on the river (making limited noise) and not have a helicopter blindly reverse over me 30ft above my head. I'm not an informed aviation participant in this instance.

You certainly aren't informed. I have rarely managed to hear a helicopter idling on the YB pad, never on the WTC pad, when across the river at Southbank Boulevard. A limited time when lifting but 99% of people in the area see it as an attraction; you are the first that I have ever heard to consider it as an annoyance. How often are you out on the Yarra in your pleasure craft? If it is often enough to be concerned then haven't you learned to keep to the other side of the river, away from the pads?

[Squawk7700]

Originally Posted by John Eacott

If it is often enough to be concerned then haven't you learned to keep to the other side of the river, away from the pads?

SOP's for boats require passage to the starboard side of the river. Traversing the other side would be a hazard akin to landing on the opposite direction to the duty runway. Downstream traffic when clearing the pedestrian bridge is exposed to the pad almost as soon as clearing the bridge, so switching over is not an option.

The video was to demonstrate the noise component and to give an idea as to how long it continues for, not flight over passenger vessels (that video has been separately forwarded to the relevant parties). Do your SOP's require you to look behind when reversing or perform a clearing turn first?

If you can't hear a helicopter from Southbank, you should get your hearing checked your an audiologist.

Believe it or not, many of the local businesses don't enjoy the helicopter traffic as much as the pilots that fly them. As I said, it's about excessive noise for 5+ minutes, multiple times per hour for the enjoyment of a select few on-board versus potentially hundreds or more pedestrians, not to mention the smell of jet fuel, particularly when sitting there for prolonged periods waiting for passengers between flights.

In reponse to residents' concerns over aircraft noise, Bandt says he will introduce legislation that will ban all but emergency aircraft from flying within 5 km of MCTY at an altitude of less than 6500 feet.

Don't forget, this thread is about aircraft noise, but yet you seem to think that nobody notices it...

[John Eacott]

We'll obviously have to agree to disagree.

But please let me know where you operate from so that I can go and perform a risk analysis and a noise assessment to ensure that my sensibilities aren't offended by your safe operations

[cattletruck]

Sadly my grand view of both pads comes to end next year and I have thoroughly enjoyed rating your arrivals and departures to these pads when I could.

I would say these pads only get busy on GP week, Melbourne Cup week, and most Friday afternoons in what I guess are the usual business airport transfers. Other than that it's quite idle with traffic with the only real noisemaker being the infrequent visit by an A109 Grand.

Prior to a foot injury a couple of months ago which has hindered my ability to visit the pads during my lunch break, I would notice most people not noticing and not even turning their heads as a helicopter lifts off the pad. On the other hand die-hards, kids and families love the novelty of seeing a whirlybird setting off on their visit to the big smoke.

I've not seen a lot of joy flights per-say, seems like a lot of these helicopters arrive under some other circumstance and while at the pad switch to the classic joy flight spruiking should there be any takers. It's funny seeing peoples faces when they learn of the cost for a flight.

Also recently noticed the PHS machines visiting... bugger the foot injury.

As for sailing on the Yarra, once-upon-a-time the biggest worry for helicopter operators was not tipping over the long row boats belonging to the clubs up the river. However these days they no longer venture that far down because of increasing commercial activities and too many fast moving motorised water craft creating too much chop.

Cant see how people can enjoy that part of the river, the Toorakians crapper plumbing feeds directly into it, storm drains dump into it with their filters unable to catch small rubbish debris, there are often oily plumes floating on top of it, it smells of decaying organic matter. It's only a river in name.

[Squawk7700]

I would say these pads only get busy on GP week, Melbourne Cup week, and most Friday afternoons

They really come alive on the weekends.

About three weekends back we counted more than a dozen joy flights over 1.5 hours across the two platforms / four pads.

[cattletruck]

Can't vouch for the weekend Squawks as most of us city workers can't bare to see the sight of the place on our days off.

Melbourne has become quite an international tourist destination in the last 5 years (which I find perplexing as it's mostly contrived), everything in the big smoke is just getting more and more crowded. Even the mayor wants to artificially turn it into an open-24-hours town at tax payers' expense.

[Squawk7700]

Even the mayor wants to artificially turn it into an open-24-hours town at tax payers' expense.

Apparently that concept is called "Asianisation" lol.

[mickjoebill]

Midway between a glitzy casino and a busy commuter train line is a reasonable location for decadent boys toys!

The pads are interesting landmarks to pass in one of the rented motor boats.

Here is the PDF of the estimated population of Melbourne.
http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/Site...eport-2015.pdf

The report indicates that 250,000 visitors versus 130,000 residents occupy Melbourne midweek.

Like most cities visitors outnumber residents. The trend in high rise apartments in CBD is for designs without a balcony, to maximise interior space.

But yes, less noise is better.
Israeli startup StoreDot has suggested tech that allows a battery to be charged in 5 minutes.
http://www.store-dot.com/single-post...f-2016Tel-Aviv

It would be ideal for short duration (10-30 min) flights over noise sensitive locations. Recharge between flights.

Just as some of the watercraft on the Yarra have gone electric, one day so will the aerial craft.

I hope the Yarra pads are still available when this tech is commercialised.


Mickjoebill

[Sunfish]

'sailing' (as in sole means of movement) is illegal in the navigable stretch of the Yarra, a motor is required (Port Rules).

Squawk7700, by the way, has just demonstrated that he is a NIMBY (not in my backyard), this is inconsistent with piloting any aircraft since by definition, all domestic and regional airports are surrounded with NIMBY noise police vermin. This is rather sad, but given the caliber of his posts, not unexpected.

P.S. All the great cities in the world (except perhaps Tokyo) operate 24/7/365. So some parochial pr1ck doesn't like helicopter noise? Get used to it.

P.P.S An alleged pilot complaining about aircraft noise? No wonder Australian GA is in a bad way

[Squawk7700]

Originally Posted by Sunfish

P.P.S An alleged pilot complaining about aircraft noise? No wonder Australian GA is in a bad way

You are nothing short of a NUFTI Sunfish - look up the acronym for that.

It's not my backyard, so I don't care how noisy it is.

There was talk of banning flights due to noise, everyone posts saying "what noise?" and I gave relevant examples and video evidence. Did you even watch the video? Next time I'll take a DB meter for interests sake.

[gerry111]

cattletruck wrote:

"Can't vouch for the weekend Squawks as most of us city workers can't bare to see the sight of the place on our days off."

There's nothing to be ashamed of appropriate nudity..

[mickjoebill]

Originally Posted by Squawk7700

They really come alive on the weekends.

About three weekends back we counted more than a dozen joy flights over 1.5 hours across the two platforms / four pads.

Yesterday, 6pm to 9pm we had a picnic in Fitzroy Gardens, East Melbourne which is a couple of city blocks from the Yarra.

Saw one HEMS going into the Alfred.
Despite the noise, no one else in the party of 20 gave it even a first look.

Zero other helicopters seen or heard.

I would say these pads only get busy on GP week, Melbourne Cup week, and most Friday afternoons

In reference to the quote above, yesterday was a Friday, plenty of tourists in town I imagine.

Just asked Mrs MJB if she heard the helicopter yesterday?
Answer "no"


Mickjoebill

[Ash767]

Well, I have emailed my local member and also the local member of the federal seat that covers my local airport asking them NOT to support this bill! I urge others to do the same if you have not already done so :-)

[The Wawa Zone]

There is a reason the Greens get a max 10% of the vote - the ideas that they come up with only take root in that 10% of the population who believes in unicorns and fairies.

[Pinky the pilot]

There is a reason the Greens get a max 10% of the vote - the ideas that they come up with only take root in that 10% of the population who believes in unicorns and fairies.

From what I have been able to discover about the Watermelon party's supporters, it seems that quite a sizable number are inner city dwellers who are sufficiently well off. They vote for the 'melons' in an attempt to assuage their consciences perhaps?

Others are of course the young radicals/idealists.

One Election day I asked someone handing out the Green how to vote cards about one of their policies. Just received a blank look and a reply that he didn't know they even had a policy on the issue I was enquiring on.