VET-FEE Help - gooooone from 1 Jan
Why does everyone feel the need to pay up front for their flight training. Around 90% (perhaps more) of the 1500 pilots at the airline I work at paid for their training by having a full time job outside of aviation and paid as they flew ie once a week. Some saved for 12 months and then do a bunch of flying during their holidays. That was the norm 28 years ago when I started flying.
Not telling anyone how to suck eggs, of course.
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but it should be available across the board and not going directly into the pockets of an elite few.
That's not entirely fair Porter, the outlay required would be beyond a lot of smaller schools, I don't believe there is a scale of cost that depends on the size of your school, I'd say it's fairly standard for them all and some just would not be big enough to be able to outlay that kind of cash nor would there be enough business of some to be able to justify it.
It is nice that some of the smaller schools may do a bit better out of this, but overall Aviation will lose out.
It is nice that some of the smaller schools may do a bit better out of this, but overall Aviation will lose out.
That's tue Ixixly, some smaller schools don't want to invest all that money and do bulk training with all the problems that brings. It didn't seem to do much good in the longer term to those who did do it...I wouldn't call bankruptcy an advantage. I'm still standing but there are schools here that did it that are now a distant memory and that didn't do anyone in the industry any good, particularly their hard working staff. Not all students want to or can do it that way either.
If the government wants to subsidise flying training then it should be available to all schools and students alike, whatever their circumstances. And it shouldn't be in the form of big wads of cash but say something like a fuel subsidy, or perhaps the feds could do something about the people who got the airport leases sending costs through the roof.
If the government wants to subsidise flying training then it should be available to all schools and students alike, whatever their circumstances. And it shouldn't be in the form of big wads of cash but say something like a fuel subsidy, or perhaps the feds could do something about the people who got the airport leases sending costs through the roof.
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Ix and Clare, it could have been available to smaller schools with an arrangement with a larger school. Not all of the larger schools are a-holes, some of them are more than happy to discuss these arrangements.
The problem I had with the whole system is there was no barrier to entry. One poster stated that plenty of doctors and lawyers start degrees and don't finish so how is aviation different? Well to get into those types of couses you need excellent school results. Some people I met at flying schools struggled to do basic mathematics and had trouble grasping how an aileron worked.
Before you start racking up tens of thousands of dollars of debt maybe there should be some sort of standard you have to meet before starting?
Before you start racking up tens of thousands of dollars of debt maybe there should be some sort of standard you have to meet before starting?
Last edited by pilotchute; 7th Oct 2016 at 02:04.
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Pilotchute,
VET FEE HELP was being tracked, if an organisation had unacceptable pass rates you were at risk of losing it (it's a pity incompetent government wasn't on top of this). Whilst there may have been schools exploiting this factor, it's just not in your interest to rort it, you will get found out sooner or later. The unfortunate part of this is that the organisation clearly to blame for this mess (both incompetent federal governments) should have been all over this like a rash. It's just not that hard to audit.
VET FEE HELP was being tracked, if an organisation had unacceptable pass rates you were at risk of losing it (it's a pity incompetent government wasn't on top of this). Whilst there may have been schools exploiting this factor, it's just not in your interest to rort it, you will get found out sooner or later. The unfortunate part of this is that the organisation clearly to blame for this mess (both incompetent federal governments) should have been all over this like a rash. It's just not that hard to audit.
TNIP, you make it look as if every school wanted a slice of this pie! Some schools just aren't interested in that kind of training. I most certainly wasn't. Especially when talking to colleagues about the attitudes of some of the students who had got the "free" money and now wanted the effortless CPL. I'd rather teach people who have gone out and earned it themselves.
The only involvement I have ever had or ever wanted in that kind of bulk training is to cross hire my aircraft to people who were doing it, COD only as it was only a matter of time before the administrators moved in.
So Tnip, don't assume that anyone who wasn't doing it was "sitting on the sidelines complaining" far from it, but it DID create a very uneven playing field in the full time Integrated CPL market (training I don't do) and it DID lead to an unrealistic market which is now coming crashing down and will mean the loss of jobs - again - for a lot of good people.
Where did all that money go?
The only involvement I have ever had or ever wanted in that kind of bulk training is to cross hire my aircraft to people who were doing it, COD only as it was only a matter of time before the administrators moved in.
So Tnip, don't assume that anyone who wasn't doing it was "sitting on the sidelines complaining" far from it, but it DID create a very uneven playing field in the full time Integrated CPL market (training I don't do) and it DID lead to an unrealistic market which is now coming crashing down and will mean the loss of jobs - again - for a lot of good people.
Where did all that money go?
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Clare, I did all of my flight training the 'old way' but it's probably taken a good 7 or 8 years (calendar, not full time). Would I personally do it the FEE-HELP way? Probably not, but that's just me. Some people want access to a quicker way of doing it, their choice.
As far as the 'attitudes' go, 100% honest, yes it is tough to get through to some of them. But if you don't paint a bull**** picture in the first place it makes the job a little easier. Not all FEE-HELP schools are sausage factories.
A full time, integrated school without FEE-HELP can compete, the good ones do, I know one of them at Moorabbin that I'm mates with, they're in a different market to us but they're surviving. We'd all like to do a little better of course!
Where did all the money go? I'll put any of our courses up for audit to any bonafide aviation person on here. I can tell you exactly where the money has gone: Aircraft refurbishments, building renovations, 2 part time maintenance people, 2 additional full time instructors, 2 additional part time instructors (advertising for more).
As far as the failures go, I reckon you and I could pick the ones that are going to go down, all you had to do was look at the management structure, too many chiefs with too many fancy titles. Personally, any government or education department official is welcome to audit our organisation.
As far as the 'attitudes' go, 100% honest, yes it is tough to get through to some of them. But if you don't paint a bull**** picture in the first place it makes the job a little easier. Not all FEE-HELP schools are sausage factories.
A full time, integrated school without FEE-HELP can compete, the good ones do, I know one of them at Moorabbin that I'm mates with, they're in a different market to us but they're surviving. We'd all like to do a little better of course!
Where did all the money go? I'll put any of our courses up for audit to any bonafide aviation person on here. I can tell you exactly where the money has gone: Aircraft refurbishments, building renovations, 2 part time maintenance people, 2 additional full time instructors, 2 additional part time instructors (advertising for more).
As far as the failures go, I reckon you and I could pick the ones that are going to go down, all you had to do was look at the management structure, too many chiefs with too many fancy titles. Personally, any government or education department official is welcome to audit our organisation.
For an aviation stand point i think that what we need to look at is ensuring that the people using VET-FEE-HELP are passionate people who really want to be in this industry. Maybe we need to have an entrance exam, or require students to self-study up to RPL level and have a few hours in an aircraft to ensure that these people are committed and just want the financial assistance. Personally i funded myself upto CPL but used VET-FEE-HELP to get an instructors rating right away. Even having the students paying the first 5-10k is better than only covering the first 15k in my opinion, ensure that its not just free money. I also say if you don't have a good reason you have to start paying it back within 5 years your paying it back, same goes for uni students, some people these days just do courses with no intent of being employed in the field then go on a do another.
One thing GA can rejoice in, and it's good at this, is the inevitable failure of some of the schools that used this scheme. Rejoice in the failure of your brothers and sisters, their lost jobs, the lost investment in new and refurbished aircraft, the local hardware that sold 70k of building materials, the extra full time jobs and part time jobs in a struggling small town, the local LAME getting a bit of extra work.
I'm sorry if legitimate businesses hedged their entire source of income on this cash cow, but all the long standing small schools that got sunk because they did not, or could not offer vet fee help training won't be sorry to see it go. Nor will the charter companies that got undercut by it either.
TNIP, I agree, schools such as The Aeroplane Company and ACFT were both great schools with excellent instructors, not sausage factories at all; the reasons they are no longer here are probably only really known by the directors but the common denominator was this kind of training. Personally I preferred to just cross hire aircraft to them and not get involved in the training side, I'm close to retirement and don't want to start some big new project now. Similarly I did look into doing JAR training about 15 years ago as I had the qualifications but it was just too much hassle for too little return...the amount of hours I would have to fly just to pay for the auditors simply wasn't worth it. Life is too short for all that paperwork 
and if it is at the whim of a Minister, as this Fee-Help thing is, then it is far too precarious a basket to put all the eggs in!
and if it is at the whim of a Minister, as this Fee-Help thing is, then it is far too precarious a basket to put all the eggs in!
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With respect to "The name is porter" (and I do mean the respect part) I think you are talking from the position of someone who has relied on government funding NOT market forces.
If your training is as good as you say you will survive like the rest of us
I would strongly suspect that students will not be in a rush to do a $25,000 instructor rating when they could do a $15,000 one...
If your training is as good as you say you will survive like the rest of us
I would strongly suspect that students will not be in a rush to do a $25,000 instructor rating when they could do a $15,000 one...
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I'm sorry if legitimate businesses hedged their entire source of income on this cash cow, but all the long standing small schools that got sunk because they did not, or could not offer vet fee help training won't be sorry to see it go. Nor will the charter companies that got undercut by it either.
We offer courses outside of this scheme, for recreational and PPL's etc. We'll survive this because we're not stupid enough to put all of our eggs in one basket.
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I would strongly suspect that students will not be in a rush to do a $25,000 instructor rating when they could do a $15,000 one...
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The VET scheme is allowing aspiring pilots the chance to gain their licence quickly and at a lower age. We all know that airlines want 24 year olds with 45 year of experience. When recently asked to provide input to government on the VET scheme my organisation suggested that a simple way to police the scheme would be regular reporting on students enrolled and Diploma's issued. Only an out of control system could pay any educator millions and see hardly any qualifications issued. Pass rates are important which means entry assesments are vital. The minister should immediately call for reporting from all sectors on course cost, pass rates, award pay rates for the qualification .
After all a person who does a make up and nail decoration course is unlikely to ever repay the debt. I would think that a lowly 2nd officer with any of the airlines would certainly be in the income bracket to repay their debt.
Government needs to be accountable for its expenditure and the results.
Will they shut down Centrelink payments because some choose to de fraud the system.
After all a person who does a make up and nail decoration course is unlikely to ever repay the debt. I would think that a lowly 2nd officer with any of the airlines would certainly be in the income bracket to repay their debt.
Government needs to be accountable for its expenditure and the results.
Will they shut down Centrelink payments because some choose to de fraud the system.
One of the reviews into the scheme looked at the price of the course versus what it costs to deliver it. I recently did a truck B double licence that cost $900 at a school that wasn't a Fee help provider. Schools that were providers charged almost double. For the same bit of paper? How can a Fee help instructor rating cost $25k when paying out of your own pocket is 5k less?
Last edited by pilotchute; 8th Oct 2016 at 06:17.
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I don't know 'just a dumb pilot' have never met him/her. I agree strongly with their sentiments. We are prepared at anytime for an audit from VRQA/FEE-HELP. We employ an RTO compliance group to ensure that at all times the education we deliver is of Diploma standard, the instructors delivering it are fully and properly qualified (there is a bit more to this than teaching a non vet fee aviation course).
We also employ a degree qualified education specialist (ex-school teacher) to internally audit all of the Diploma records, to help design courses, to liaise with students on their progress, to design remedial programs.
Maybe that answers some of your questions pilotechute?
We also employ a degree qualified education specialist (ex-school teacher) to internally audit all of the Diploma records, to help design courses, to liaise with students on their progress, to design remedial programs.
Maybe that answers some of your questions pilotechute?