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Adelaide in for a storm!

Old 30th Sep 2016, 01:22
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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JoAnne Nova has a look-see at South Australia's greeny power fiasco...

The South Australian black out ? A grid on the edge. There were warnings that renewables made it vulnerable JoNova




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Old 30th Sep 2016, 02:10
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Originally Posted by rutan around View Post
Did you ever stop to think that the dirty Pt Augusta power station and thousands of others like it may be a contributing factor to these weather events.

The problem of fluctuating power from renewables will be solved. The renewable industry is still in its infancy.

All those naysayers should hark back to early electricity production where the usual handbrakes predicted it would never be much use because the then DC current was only good for a couple of miles. .Then along came Nikola Tesla.

Where would we be today if the Luddites against electricity back then had not been ignored?
Post 11 "The problem of fluctuating power from renewables will be solved. ....."

Do you have the same confidence that practical carbon capture and storage from coal or gas fired generators will be solved?
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 03:48
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I also would look at tower construction or design as the problem.

Gale-force winds are expected across the state, reaching speeds of 50 to 75 kilometres per hour with gusts of 90kph to 120kph.
Damaging winds gusts of 90kph to 115kph and winds averaging 50kph to 65kph have been recorded at multiple locations including Ceduna, Coles Point, Port Lincoln, Minlaton, Kadina, Woomera and Mount Crawford.


Past History below of recorded wind speeds!!!!!!!!


The SA record is 167 km/h at Woomera on 14 November 1979. While I haven't checked I presume this was a thunderstorm.

Finding wind gusts is a bit messy because a lot of the AWSs didn't feed daily maximum wind gusts into the database until quite recently, and the hourly/half-hourly gusts are full of dodgy observations. The following SA sites have recorded gusts of 120 km/h or more (this may reflect data availability rather than winds):

Woomera (max 167)
Leigh Creek (149)
Oodnadatta (141)
Marree (128)
Ceduna (158)
Neptune Island (122)
Cleve (124)
Coles Point (152)
Port Augusta (130)
Cape Willoughby (137)
Adelaide (WT) (148)
Parafield (141)
Penfield (145)
Adelaide AP (135)
Edinburgh (152)
Mount Gambier (143)


To pervious comment about cyclones below is a track map of cyclones, some travel vast difference over land and a few have formed overland.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3hjwfvcpl3...lones.jpg?dl=0
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 04:03
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The problem of fluctuating power from renewables will be solved. ....."

Do you have the same confidence that practical carbon capture and storage from coal or gas fired generators will be solved?
yes, the problem will be solved, and solutions are already starting to take shape! i myself have a 15KwH battery attached to the grid in the form of an EV vehicle, when im not driving it obviously, Nissan Leaf vehicles when plugged into the grid to charge, can be used as storage to smooth out those fluctuations in the UK. called Grid vehicles, the cars communicate with the energy providers, and when demanded, can return energy back to the grid from their drive batteries, or slow or stop their charging temporarily, or if needed can take up extra power when demand drops, by fast charging the vehicle.


How to Sell Power from Electric Cars Back to the Grid - Scientific American

Link to PDF paper from Uni of Denmark here http://www.edison-net.dk/~/media/EDI...n%20study.ashx
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 05:18
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I think Cronulla is in for a Storm as well!
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 08:56
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"I also would look at tower construction or design as the problem."

How much do you want to pay? Those towers are often suspension systems. Ie the wires are part of the support system to hold the tower up. So if you lose the wires in a high wind or a tower is damaged and fails you are at risk of losing the towers in that area because they lose a large part of their structural support

There are often heavily engineered towers every so often to limit the cascading collapse that will happen if something does happen.


You can engineer things to withstand almost anything but at what cost and is it feasible to engineer HV transmission towers in SA to withstand a high cat2 storm when it happens so infrequently.

Also cascading power network failures are not uncommon. Lets not get carried away here.
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 09:32
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Australia contributes less than 1% of global emissions.
That may be, but you represent about 0.3% of the global population, so you are still producing about 3 times the global average so have no room for complacency
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 11:44
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L999, look at the cyclone track map on same post.

No one else in Australia has the falling tower problem with stronger winds, just ring up any other state and territory and get design specs for towers - theirs all stand up to STRONGER winds.

My bet is they not built to spec by 666 (the devil to make a few bucks) but that's a guess.
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 12:33
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The Port Augusta power station was constructed in 1963, with additional capacity added in 1985. Though the station is no longer producing, the grid would still be in place to service towns. So the grid is probably aging, and designed to a standard that may no longer be applicable. Bass Strait oil rigs were designed to meet a one in something years event, but turned out the events were of a far more regular occurrence than expected. Personnel had to be evacuated when the weather reached a certain limit as a safety precaution, prior to the platforms undergoing structural strengthening.
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 21:04
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That may be, but you represent about 0.3% of the global population, so you are still producing about 3 times the global average so have no room for complacency
The Earth doesn't count heads. It only senses total global emissions.
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 21:31
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Quote:
That may be, but you represent about 0.3% of the global population, so you are still producing about 3 times the global average so have no room for complacency
The Earth doesn't count heads. It only senses total global emissions.
This doesn't alter the fact that we Australians are contributing way more than our fair share to atmospheric pollution.
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 22:02
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via Ultralights:
yes, the problem will be solved, and solutions are already starting to take shape! i myself have a 15KwH battery attached to the grid in the form of an EV vehicle, when im not driving it obviously, Nissan Leaf vehicles when plugged into the grid to charge, can be used as storage to smooth out those fluctuations in the UK. called Grid vehicles, the cars communicate with the energy providers, and when demanded, can return energy back to the grid from their drive batteries, or slow or stop their charging temporarily, or if needed can take up extra power when demand drops, by fast charging the vehicle.


How to Sell Power from Electric Cars Back to the Grid - Scientific American

Link to PDF paper from Uni of Denmark here http://www.edison-net.dk/~/media/EDI...n%20study.ashx
Hmmm... So yer got an electric vehicle. A taxpayer subsidised electric vehicle ?
Considering that Oz power grids are maxed out I'm wondering just how many more taxpayer subsidised electric vehicles we can take..

Anyway, reading the supplied links about all this charging, discharging got me thinking about battery life. A read of the links gave me this: "...the impact of charging and discharging on battery lifetime also has to be considered. The EV batteries characteristics that have to be included in the EV model are: charging power, discharging power, maximum SOC, minimum SOC/maximum depth of discharge (DOD) and charging time..." . All and good though apart from a very vague chart they didn't give any real answer to it. If the idea is to smooth out 'fluctuations in the grid' then yer might find the cars batterys are doing 100's of part cycles in a day. Those bright spark EV owners utilising the 'grid vehicle' program may find themselves buying a whole new battery pack every second year..





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Old 30th Sep 2016, 22:21
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This doesn't alter the fact that we Australians are contributing way more than our fair share to atmospheric pollution.
This is absolute crap.

The "per capita" clams of the greenies are deeply flawed. The only reason our rates are seemingly high compared to other western nations is because we have a small population and it is spread out over a massive area compared to other nations. Our high carbon emissions per capita are the result of distributing goods, services and electricity across such a vast land mass to a small population.

If anyone thinks that Australians live a particularly pollutive lifestyle compared to countries like the USA, you are kidding yourselves. If we were to reduce our per capita emissions to a value similar to that of the USA whilst maintaining our same population level, our standard of living would be significantly lower.

I didn't want to turn this into a debate about renewable energy policy but I am sick of the greenies and their attack on our standards of living because of cherry picked statistics. If they had their way, aviation would be the first industry to close.

Last edited by mikewil; 30th Sep 2016 at 22:22. Reason: Punctuation
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 23:26
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So yer got an electric vehicle. A taxpayer subsidised electric vehicle ?
what makes you think i got a taxpayer subsidy? the total subsidies given to electric vehicles in Australia, and all states is a big fat $0. (ever wondered why they are so expensive in Oz?)

as for battery life, thats another myth in the proving, quite a few battery equipped hybrids have been on the roads now for decades, and none have shown any sign of battery life problems, and even if they did, the cost of new batteries, more powerful, more efficient batteries is coming down rapidly. even over the last 5 years, the cost has fallen 90%. thats part of the reason for the flood of new EV's in the works for release soon, with about 400Km ranges, at normal car prices.
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 23:49
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This doesn't alter the fact that we Australians are contributing way more than our fair share to atmospheric pollution.
Our high carbon emissions per capita are the result of distributing goods, services and electricity across such a vast land mass to a small population.
Also, using heaps of energy/creating "heaps" of GH emissions to produce low-emissions-gas for other countries to use to create low-carbon power...
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Old 30th Sep 2016, 23:59
  #36 (permalink)  
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Did you ever stop to think that the dirty Pt Augusta power station and thousands of others like it may be a contributing factor to these weather events.
If the transmission line fell near Melrose, which is a long way south of Port Augusta, why wasn't power supplied to the areas north of Port and the Eyre Pen. by the new beaut solar power station at Port Augusta and the wind turbines to the East of Port Augusta?

Surely they have not built a grid that cannot be segmented?

Maybe it was dark and the wind too strong.

Ops back to the drawing board.
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Old 1st Oct 2016, 00:14
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Via Ultralights:
what makes you think i got a taxpayer subsidy? the total subsidies given to electric vehicles in Australia, and all states is a big fat $0...
Hmmm... When I put fuel in my car about half of the per litre cost is a road maintenance 'tax'. Do tell Ultralights, how do you pay for the roads you drive on ? Or do you rely upon the other taxpayers to subsidise the roads you use..




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Old 1st Oct 2016, 02:26
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Actually, $0.396 tax goes straight into federal consolidated revenue, not roads, yet only 1% of fuel taxes are actually spent on road infrastructure, or $0.09 from every $0.40 collected according to other sources(http://www.mynrma.com.au/blog/2014/0...-1226298533026)(UNDER THE PUMP: Where the government is really spending your petrol taxes)
as for licence and rego fees, $0 of that goes into roads, the never ending argument against cyclists has proven that, all of that goes straight to the states consolidated revenue, so based on those facts, my EV, weighing more than your average SUV, pays more in rego taxes, so, yes, im paying my fair share considering most road funding come from general revenue payed by all taxpayers in the country, EV's cost more, so pay more stamp duty, and more GST, and possibly luxury car tax,
but if you really want to get down to it, i pay road taxes on the Unleaded fuel i burn in the air.. after looking at the figures now, i might just apply for a rebate. as my aircraft doesnt use roads. and no, the NSW govt doesnt have a 3x3 fuel levy either
(Fuel Tax Inquiry - Government Submissions)
So, the only subsidy i could really take advantage of is the Huge subsidies given to the Coal industry to provide the power to charge the car, (if i wasnt using Solar or renewables) but hey, lets attack EV's because they apparently pay less road tax, and encourage people keeping cars that keep pumping out more poisonous gasses that kill 10's of thousands of people every year, and contributes to a massive health care bill. (paid by taxpayers)
as a test, pick 2 cars, one an EV, one the most fuel efficient petrol car on earth, put both in a sealed room, and choose one to spend a day inside with the engine running, which would you choose to spend a day sealed inside with?

Funny how the very small proportion of EV's on the roads are getting the blame for the reduced fuel tax revenues, when, over the past decade, most cars are twice as efficient now than they were, therefore reducing revenue by the same percentage, so, yeah, blame the 1% of cars on the road for that one.

and not only that, EVs can be used to help balance power grids, and provide power in times of unreliable power generation, but lets abandon that idea as well, because, less road tax!

and as for the argument, "your just moving emissions from the tailpipe to the power station"... well,

Last edited by Ultralights; 1st Oct 2016 at 02:43.
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Old 1st Oct 2016, 04:11
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Carbon emissions

Nice little video however......
The EV vehicle only weighs that much because of the weight of EV technology...batteries etc.
So an equivalent functionality vehicle will use about 2-3x as much energy for the same trip.
Add to that that coal produces more considerably carbon dioxide per Kw of energy extracted than gasoline:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=73&t=11
And that between 5-10% of electrical energy is lost in transmission
And more still in generation (three energy conversions: coal to heat, heat to kinetic, kinetic to electric)
and they start to look the same.
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Old 1st Oct 2016, 05:27
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Originally Posted by TBM-Legend
Australia contributes less than 1% of global emissions.
So if we were to pollute on the per capita basis of the rest of the planet Australia must have a population of 70,000,000 (that 70 Million people for those confused by the zeros).


I was watching an FD PC-12 making an approach into YPAD as the front was coming through. They got in just a couple of minutes before the wind swung through about 100. Don't know what the wind gust were but I imagine they earned their money that approach.


Not long after that the power went out so no more watching any interesting approaches. Bummer that.


Originally Posted by Flying Binghi
The big S.A. power stations are wind. Now they got too much wind..
So why were the wind farms taken off line (I assume they feathered the blades on the towers)? Was it the gusts, wind velocity to high, possible rapid wind vector changes or a combination of them all? Don't know what turbines they have, if indeed they are all of the same make & model, so I don't know what their limitations are. Kudos to South Australia for having 40% of their power supplied by renewables.
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