Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions
Reload this Page >

Where is the Cobham/AMSA SAR Challenger 604???

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Where is the Cobham/AMSA SAR Challenger 604???

Old 29th Sep 2016, 19:25
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Horn Island
Posts: 1,044
Received 33 Likes on 8 Posts
this is correct, just wondering what the usable range could be if recovery needed to be planned around flap failure at about 170 knots (at 10,000 feet if we throw in depressurisation as well
how about an engine and complete electrical failure as well?
RENURPP is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2016, 21:44
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: australia
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bodybag
Oh dear indeed Dashunder,
You have no idea what your talking about.
You speak uninformed rubbish.. but if it makes you feel better just keep on banging on.
..and BAT74,
80 + good people lost their jobs and the contract went to a multi-national.
Firstly its 2016. Get with the global program. Kicked to the kerb?? Whatever you weirdo.
Secondly, believe it or not Cobham only selected those that were suitable. Be it skills or be it attitude, if only a hand full were selected, it speaks volumes of where the previous contract offering was at. Sometimes a good old clean out is just what the doctor (or contract owner) ordered.
I feel for you guys, I really do. I've been there.
I just cannot see how this carry on is beneficial? If you want to have a winge with old coworkers, why not set up a private Facebook group or something?
Ha! resorting to name calling. You're such a pro at this. If you can't handle the heat maybe you should stick to Facebook
BAT74 is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2016, 22:01
  #63 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BAT74
Ha! resorting to name calling. You're such a pro at this. If you can't handle the heat maybe you should stick to Facebook
Hitting a bone there I think. Great forum. No doubt the client and regulator having a peek at it now and then seeing as they've been shut out and fed bull****.
TwistedWindsock is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2016, 22:46
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: On my V Strom
Posts: 340
Received 19 Likes on 10 Posts
"I overheard a conversation the other day that included a discussion of 604 performance. If I heard correctly, to achieve the required SAR drop speeds the 604 would need to be flying with full flap / slats."

No not even close Layman. Whoever is giving you your info should be shoved in a blender. Firstly, the 604 has no slats. As for the speed - nope, doing a RAT drop test flight has the aircraft back at under 140kt with just one stage of flaps. So drop speeds with one stage of flaps, Flap 20, is no problem. BTW, there are 3 stages of flaps.
Trevor the lover is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2016, 00:25
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 314
Received 5 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Trevor the lover

No not even close Layman. Whoever is giving you your info should be shoved in a blender. Firstly, the 604 has no slats. As for the speed - nope, doing a RAT drop test flight has the aircraft back at under 140kt with just one stage of flaps. So drop speeds with one stage of flaps, Flap 20, is no problem. BTW, there are 3 stages of flaps.
So Cobham are flying the 604 at 140 knots with flap 20? That's a disaster waiting to happen. Last time I flew the 604 our min speeds were 190 clean, 170 flap 20, 160 flap 30 and the Vref flap 45. And that was a transit operation, A to B. Not a dynamic low level operation. If you're flying around at min speed eventually it's gonna bite you.

What's the plan when the flap doesn't retract? Recovery at FL140? Below 231 knots. Hope that's factored into the bingo fuel!

The more I hear about this operation the more I'm worried about the potential for an accident. Wrong aircraft for the job.

Last edited by Slezy9; 30th Sep 2016 at 00:37.
Slezy9 is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2016, 03:15
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The wrong time zone...
Posts: 839
Received 48 Likes on 21 Posts
Secondly, believe it or not Cobham only selected those that were suitable. Be it skills or be it attitude, if only a hand full were selected, it speaks volumes of where the previous contract offering was at.
Not entirely - they also selected those willing to accept the low pay to conduct this operation on a CL604.
josephfeatherweight is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2016, 04:46
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Trevor the lover
"I overheard a conversation the other day that included a discussion of 604 performance. If I heard correctly, to achieve the required SAR drop speeds the 604 would need to be flying with full flap / slats."

No not even close Layman. Whoever is giving you your info should be shoved in a blender. Firstly, the 604 has no slats. As for the speed - nope, doing a RAT drop test flight has the aircraft back at under 140kt with just one stage of flaps. So drop speeds with one stage of flaps, Flap 20, is no problem. BTW, there are 3 stages of flaps.
Trevor if you are flying that machine on SAR at 140 kts you are incredibly light and approaching the crash site (yours). The 604 variants may come with or without slats, you would have been better off with them.
Furthermore selection of aircrew by an HR department without experience in SAR is hardly an endorsement of that proffesionals experience and capability, AMSA had an opinion of people who they would like to have seen supporting the implementation of this new contract, these recommendations were ignored and possibly put the aircrew at a disadvantage, such was Cobhams desire to " create" a new culture.
FMTAfterburn is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2016, 06:21
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canberra
Posts: 244
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Ttl - thanks

RENURPP - my understanding is that RAAF plans for 'worst case' P3 recovery with one engine out, depressurised. I'd assume Cobham SOP would be similar.

Slezy9 - thanks
layman is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2016, 07:18
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NSW
Posts: 4,268
Received 31 Likes on 23 Posts
The Danish Air Force has been using this type for SAR for many years quite successfully.
So what's the problem??

RDAF Eskadrille 721 (721st squadron).

4 x Canadair CL-604 Challenger
TBM-Legend is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2016, 07:24
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 314
Received 5 Likes on 1 Post
Originally Posted by wasathangi
Oh, not to mention that there is a lot of good experienced guys there,,,
Yeah, maybe. But there's also a few who shouldn't....

And no, I'm not bitter. I didn't work for the previous mob, and I was offered a job. Turned it down, not enough money and a bumbling HR department turned me right off!
Slezy9 is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2016, 08:34
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The wrong time zone...
Posts: 839
Received 48 Likes on 21 Posts
The 604 variants may come with or without slats
Really?? Never ever seen or heard of a 604 with slats - but willing to be re-educated.
The Danish Air Force has been using this type for SAR for many years quite successfully.
SAR is not the primary role of the RDAF 604s - they maintain a basic capability, but SAR is a fair way down the list when it comes to their role.
Turned it down, not enough money and a bumbling HR department turned me right off!
I hear you, brother!
josephfeatherweight is offline  
Old 30th Sep 2016, 23:59
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: On my V Strom
Posts: 340
Received 19 Likes on 10 Posts
Slezy 9 and FMT - not sure why I'm writing this because clearly you guys cannot read. Where did Trev say that the SAR drops would be done at 140kts?? I said, quite clearly, that RAT drops are done at Flap 20, 140kts. I DID NOT say that would be the drop speeds for SAR. The drops speeds will be quite a lot higher and therefore there is a safety buffer.


And I standby for the photos of the 604 with slats. ha ha
Trevor the lover is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2016, 03:40
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NSW
Posts: 4,268
Received 31 Likes on 23 Posts
Danish SAR is more than a minor sub-mission>>CL-604 CHALLENGER

ROYAL DANISH AIR FORCE
The CL-604 Challenger was originally a civilian aircraft, and it also performs some civilian tasks in the Royal Danish Air Force. It is normally the CL-604 Challenger that carries out VIP flights for the Danish government, the Royal family or Defence Command Denmark.

The Danish CL-604 version has had several modifications so we can use it for a variety of missions.

Approx 140 days a year the Challenger is deployed to Greenland to perform surveillance and SAR operations over the largest island in the world.

With the SLAR and FLIR it has an excellent capability for maritime surveillance in the environmental pollution control role.

With the Ocean Eye Radar strapped under its belly it detects ships and icebergs when it operates in the surveillance mode for control of the Fishery zones around Greenland and the Faroe Islands. In both configurations the communication facilities matched with the sensors provide a fine platform for “On Scene Commander” Search and Rescue operations.The aircraft even has a capability to drop life rafts, buoys for collecting samples of pollution and smaller bundles. Configured with seats we can transport 6 – 8 VIP passengers or up to 18 regular passengers. If need be also medical evacuation can be performed carrying patients on stretchers (small injuries).
TBM-Legend is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2016, 08:35
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The wrong time zone...
Posts: 839
Received 48 Likes on 21 Posts
Hi TBM - my knowledge of the RDAF's utilisation of their 604s is not based off an airshow website. Whilst not trying to diminish their capability (or your comment), their primary role (by a HUGE margin) is maritime surveillance, particularly fisheries patrol and pollution monitoring. I'm sure they do a brilliant job of SAR, but it forms a very very small part of their tasking - which is completely different to the AMSA Cobham 604s.
josephfeatherweight is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2016, 08:53
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: On my V Strom
Posts: 340
Received 19 Likes on 10 Posts
Wasathangi don't be such a wonker. I would have more idea than you would probably ever guess.


Look at my points in context. I was responding to layman saying the drops would have to be done with full flaps and slats. My response initially was not to do with the drops themselves per se - I was pointing out that the aircraft can fly at 140kts with just flap 20 (no I do NOT advocate this config outside of the test flight)- so in context it was debunking Layman's post saying drops have to be done full flap to be able to fly slow enough.


You say I have no idea - well mate, MY 604 AFM says min speed clean 170, F20 160, F30 150 - so why is a drop at 180kt clean unsafe when it is 10 kts above the min speed? Please give me your enlightened answer.


And if you think I have no idea, then I will happily scan and present my AFM showing the min speeds AND the RAT drop profile. Then maybe you can say the AFM has no idea.


Answer my post then YOU can go away - and don't come back.
Trevor the lover is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2016, 09:00
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: On my V Strom
Posts: 340
Received 19 Likes on 10 Posts
And also Wasawanki - I love this quote
As for slats....get real, the aircraft is only 48200lbs (22t round number)

What does the weight have to do with it dopey. Why do other jets of the same weight have slats then - Falcon 900 for instance. Who has no idea?????
Trevor the lover is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2016, 09:08
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: overthere
Posts: 3,037
Received 17 Likes on 9 Posts
15 inches at idle Trev. All other facts will confuse them
donpizmeov is offline  
Old 1st Oct 2016, 11:04
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: OZ
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This thread is starting to get off track.

The fact is, Perth was supposed to be online on the 8th of August, and they are still not online.

Cairns is due next week.
Dashunder is offline  
Old 2nd Oct 2016, 05:21
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 3,089
Received 14 Likes on 11 Posts
Originally Posted by Trevor the lover
And also Wasawanki - I love this quote
As for slats....get real, the aircraft is only 48200lbs (22t round number)

What does the weight have to do with it dopey. Why do other jets of the same weight have slats then - Falcon 900 for instance. Who has no idea?????
Indeed. I used to fly a Tiger Moth that had slats, they are not necessarily limited to heavy jets.
AerocatS2A is online now  
Old 2nd Oct 2016, 05:52
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The wrong time zone...
Posts: 839
Received 48 Likes on 21 Posts
You're welcome, TREVOR....
Comes across better if you spell it right, but why is this getting so snarky?
No need for it, it's meant to be a discussion about Cobham's delayed introduction of the 604s to SAR service and the reasons behind it.
josephfeatherweight is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.