Rotting ADF / VOR facilities

[Old Akro]

On May 27, AsA in its infinite wisdom turned off a whole range of ground based navigation facilities. Most of which were functioning perfectly at the time of disconnection.

Yesterday, I happened to drive past the now decommissioned Wonthaggi VOR / NDB. Its sitting happily in a dairy farmers paddock. Which led to wonder:

What's happening with all the decommissioned antennae towers, equipment buildings and equipment?

Is it being left to rot? Is it being disassembled and removed? If its not being demolished, who is going to maintain them? Was disassembly & removal costs factored in to the economic case to retire these facilities?

[CaptainMidnight]

Is it being left to rot?

Hardly.

We were advised that the equipment will be progressively removed, to be used for spares. Towers, antennas etc. dismantled and sold for scrap. Buildings offered to landowners or dismantled for scrap.

Was disassembly & removal costs factored in to the economic case to retire these facilities?

No doubt, and if they were to be retained, the ongoing maintenance costs, cost of replacement/upgrade, ongoing land lease, electricity etc. etc.

NDBs & VORs were offered to the relevant AD owner/shire and flying club(s) to take over responsibility for, but few took up the offer.

[Capn Bloggs]

Getting desperate now, Akro...

[Old Akro]

Getting desperate now, Akro...

No, genuine question. The NDB at Wonthaggi is a really nice red brick hut with a pitched roof literally sitting at the top of a hill in a dairy farmers paddock about halfway between Wonthaggi & Loch. It would be typical of government to simply leave old stuff to deteriorate.

Having said that, my rant would be:
1. AsA has removed all the ground based aids used for training and currency in the Melbourne basin. This is clearly in violation of its safety responsibility. I cannot believe that the training and currency benefit does not justify the cost of keeping one NDB / VOR location that is readily accessible from Melbourne for maintenance (eg Cowes or Wonthaggi - both with 1.5 hour drive of Melbourne CDB) since AsA has previously identified Yarrowee (near the residential township of Enfield where many people live & commute to work in Melbourrne) as too remote and dangerous to maintain.


2. The reason (I suspect) that these navaids are too expensive to maintain is the ridiculously high, non commercial rates charged by AsA. Why should an NDB cost any more to maintain than a HAM radio?

So far as I can tell, Australia is the only country that is shutting down ground based navaids in this wholesale manner.

[Peter Pan Pan]

Originally Posted by Old Akro

Why should an NDB cost any more to maintain than a HAM radio?

Err.. plenty of reasons really. How about:

-Recurrent flight inspection in an aeropearl king air to validate the coverage and accuracy of the aid
-Redundancy of equipment, backup power supplies etc
-Lease of land for the facility
-Cost of periodic maintenance for instrument approach procedures using the aid

[andrewr]

NDBs & VORs were offered to the relevant AD owner/shire and flying club(s) to take over responsibility for, but few took up the offer.

Not surprising - why would a council or a flying club want to take on the cost of providing aircraft navigation facilities? What benefit do they get from it? Many aircraft using them wouldn't actually land, so even if you try to recoup costs with landing fees you (a) annoy regular users who don't use the aid and (b) don't get much money anyway. Or you get to the situation where councils or airports try to charge aircraft for simply overflying.

It's an unworkable idea put in to give the appearance of offering options.

[Squawk7700]

Shut them down. It's called change. Keep your VOR gauge for the museum or to show to your great grand kids for their show and tell.

Unless one day the satellites all go off-line, we'll be fine.

[Old Akro]

Unless one day the satellites all go off-line, we'll be fine.

Or the US turns dither back on
Or the GPS is jammed (the military can do this and have done it regularly in the past)
Or the aircraft GPS receiver goes U/S. This frequently occurs due to antenna failure.
Or the data card is corrupt
Or there is a RAIM blackout at the wrong time

Up until now, we have always regarded that you need a seperate redundant system. Why does GPS change that? Other than it makes AsA's life easier.

[The name is Porter]

Dear God Almighty (I'm not religious but that sounded dramatic). An NDB, the equivalent of a box brownie camera, and you want to keep them for training? I'm dumping the NDB off my IR PC this year and good riddance. Can me move into the 21st century or do we want to stay in the 20th? The Wrights would laugh at you clowns.

[Old Akro]

Recurrent flight inspection in an aeropearl king air to validate the coverage and accuracy of the aid
-Redundancy of equipment, backup power supplies etc
-Lease of land for the facility
-Cost of periodic maintenance for instrument approach procedures using the aid

Some of this is just a belt & braces approach that is gold plating the system and serving to help build empires within AsA.

AsA charge multiples of what other agencies around the world charge for the same service. The US can install ILS on a runway for about 1/7th the cost of AsA. Why?

I can't find a reference for the maintenance cost of NDB's, but modern NDB's require a building about the size of a phonebox and have centralised monitoring capability.

The FAA are continuing to operate but cease flight testing of many NDB's. Why wouldn't AsA consider this?

[CaptainMidnight]

It's an unworkable idea put in to give the appearance of offering options.

What workable option(s) would you suggest, and did you put them to your industry association rep when the navaid rationalisation project was announced some 5 years ago?

Some of this is just a belt & braces approach that is gold plating the system

Periodic flight testing is mandatory, along with other requirements per CASR.

modern NDB's require a building about the size of a phonebox

Difficult to fit a large wire antenna in a phone box.

There are 130-odd NDBs remaining, including most of the capital city GA ADs.

Too late to complain now - should have been more vocal years ago, although the RAPACs weren't.

[Squawk7700]

What's the difference between the satellites being jammed up or your VOR unit failing or an electrical failure? Nada.

[Captain Dart]

VOR jammed up: use VOR 2 receiver if you have one, or the trusty ADF. Ground station failure? Should be other beacons to divert to.

Electrical system failure: yep, you are up the proverbial creek (not a scenario in Old Akro's post, it was antenna failure). You may be lucky enough to have 2 independent GPS systems with separate antennae to cover an on-board failure if that is what you meant by 'electrical failure'.

Entire or part GPS constellation affected by jamming, solar flare or military activity: use the VOR or ADF...oh, wait...

I suppose that that radar vectors to one of Australia's few ILS somewhere might be an option.

We could always bring back the VDF approach!

[Old Akro]

although the RAPACs weren't

I thought the Victorian RAPAC was pretty vocal. Especially about the lack of training / currency aids in the Melbourne basin. I thought it would be hard for them to have been more vocal. But AsA pretty much pissed on them and directly lied about Yarrowee aid. Then recently CASA have been making statements that essentially say that they don't want to hear dissenting views from RAPAC.

Its the AOPA that have sold us out.

[Old Akro]

not a scenario in Old Akro's post, it was antenna failure

I've had 2 GPS antennae failures, which is why I list it. We use GPS based dataloggers almost daily at work and have regular antennae failures. I regard GPS antennaes as a consumable item.

For as long as I have been flying (since te early 70's) a fundamental tenant is to have redundant systems. But now CASA / AsA seem to be turning their back on this philosophy because its inconvenient for them.

[CaptainMidnight]

a fundamental tenant is to have redundant systems. But now CASA / AsA seem to be turning their back on this philosophy because its inconvenient for them.

There is a redundant navaid system - it's called the Backup Navigation Network.

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...ploads/BNN.pdf

[triadic]

Then recently CASA have been making statements that essentially say that they don't want to hear dissenting views from RAPAC.

Mostly from a Manager that is no longer with CASA. Times are changing.

[Old Akro]

There is a redundant navaid system - it's called the Backup Navigation Network.

Yeah, I was waiting for that. The back up system is actually half reasonable and, I suspect, relies on NDB's more than most people expect. For GA, VOR now has very limited use. But west of the "J - curve" the NDB network is very useful.

I'd argue 4 major points:
1. I think AsA is derelict in its duty by not maintaining an existing aid for training / currency in the Melbourne basin (and probably other capitals)
2. I don't understand why it turned off aids that were working perfectly, rather than leaving them to expire
3. I don't understand why AsA would not do what the FAA has done and leave aids active but cease flight testing them. Specifically, NDB's where I completely fail to see the need for flight testing. Surely these could be pilot monitored?
4. The AsA charge out rate for navaid certification is unconscionable. If it were a private company it would be subject to ACCC scrutiny. Why is there no impulsion for AsA to benchmark its costs with other agencies. Surely they are one of the most expoensive agencies in the world. Australia has less ILS equipped runways than most 3rd world countries. And it seems to me that the key reason is (thanks to AsA & CASA) it costs about 7 times that of America to install one. Can't we get a bunch of yanks on 457 visa's to do it???

[kaz3g]

The NDB at Shepparton will continue to operate and, as a bonus, you can still get a great lunch at the Aeroclub on Saturdays or breakfast on Sundays so drop in...don't just fly over.

Kaz

[thorn bird]

The AsA charge out rate for navaid certification is unconscionable. If it were a private company it would be subject to ACCC scrutiny. Why is there no impulsion for AsA to benchmark its costs with other agencies. Surely they are one of the most expoensive agencies in the world. Australia has less ILS equipped runways than most 3rd world countries. And it seems to me that the key reason is (thanks to AsA & CASA) it costs about 7 times that of America to install one. Can't we get a bunch of yanks on 457 visa's to do it???

Akro,
probably for the same reason we don't have LVP in Australia.
Back in the late sixties our RAAF dominated regulator considered Low Vis procedures were dangerous and not for Australia.

For the same reason they employed a team of surveyors to travel the world surveying airports to set the minima that Quaintass were permitted to operate to.

For the same reason the current RAAF dominated regulator is prepared to piss a half billion dollars up against the wall to foster and promote Australian regulations and probably a billion dollars by the time they have actually finished THEIR reform, by which time there will be no industry left for them to apply to.

For the same reason our primary airports were delivered into the hands of big banks, and our secondaries into the hands of development sharks.

Tax free profits being the imperative, not the public good. The user must pay, and they do, plus the profit. Those who control our airports don't give a fig for the public good or safety, their only interest is profit, which is why our aviation infrastructure has descended to third world status.

Our airport owners say we cannot do anything unless the user pays. Well, the user is and has paid, they are hardly going to contribute more to the airport owners infrastructure to be charged for its use.

It has always been thus, we are right, all the rest of the world is wrong, and man don't we pay for it.

I have spent 50 years in aviation, the rule was always have a backup. Now with the relentless pursuit of PROFIT, safety gets thrown out the window.

Call me a stupid old fart if you like, but I have a very uneasy feeling that CAsA and ASA collusion will come back to bite us one day.