Ridiculous radio calls
Thread Starter
Ridiculous radio calls
Class D.
I've had my head in a bucket since YMMB and others became class D from GAAP.
Who on earth was responsible for facilitating this mess?
Call I heard today (call-sign is not accurate and wording is not perfect, but you get the idea).
Aircraft - Ground, Foxbat 1234 request taxi clearance for runway 31L for the training area, received information Sierra.
Tower - Foxbat 1234, cleared to taxi for departure runway three one left, enter taxiway bravo at alpha two, cleared to cross runway three five left, three five right and runway two two and hold at holding point bravo three for three one left.
Aircraft - Foxbat 1234, cleared for three one left via taxiway bravo
for three one left holding point bravo three.
Tower - Foxbat 1234, you need to read back all of the runways to confirm your clearance to taxi.
Aircraft - Foxbat 1234, taxi to holding point bravo three for three one left and cleared to cross runway three five left, three five right and runway two two.
To whoever is responsible for this level of complexity.... flying is supposed to be fun
I've had my head in a bucket since YMMB and others became class D from GAAP.
Who on earth was responsible for facilitating this mess?
Call I heard today (call-sign is not accurate and wording is not perfect, but you get the idea).
Aircraft - Ground, Foxbat 1234 request taxi clearance for runway 31L for the training area, received information Sierra.
Tower - Foxbat 1234, cleared to taxi for departure runway three one left, enter taxiway bravo at alpha two, cleared to cross runway three five left, three five right and runway two two and hold at holding point bravo three for three one left.
Aircraft - Foxbat 1234, cleared for three one left via taxiway bravo
for three one left holding point bravo three.
Tower - Foxbat 1234, you need to read back all of the runways to confirm your clearance to taxi.
Aircraft - Foxbat 1234, taxi to holding point bravo three for three one left and cleared to cross runway three five left, three five right and runway two two.
To whoever is responsible for this level of complexity.... flying is supposed to be fun
I believe they put it in there to actually make the critical things less confusing Squawk7700. At Archerfield people wouldn't always realise when they did and/or did not need clearance to cross the Dirt Strips (AKA, not realising they're active and needed a clearance), so to make things easier they just make it that you ALWAYS need a clearance, yes the calls and readbacks are a little more confusing and long winded BUT at least it helps stop people from crossing Runways they shouldn't. Method in the madness?
Thread Starter
Fuji, refer to disclaimer. Exact wording is not the point.
In GAAP days, it would be "taxi to runway three one left via bravo" and possibly no mention of bravo three.
In GAAP days, it would be "taxi to runway three one left via bravo" and possibly no mention of bravo three.
Squawk7700, with your version of what it would have been in the GAAP days there are many many options that Foxbat could have taken to get to that exact same point when I look at YMMB, isn't it the job of SMC to guide the Aircraft in which way to go so they don't have Aircraft taxiing all over the place? It's not like there is only 1 option for getting to Bravo 3 at 31L, there are also runways to be crossed and that requires clearance as well, sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Thread Starter
It's a lot of added complexity, particularly when 17/35 is not in use.
Judging by the number of pilots that weren't getting their radio work right, it's either overly complex, poorly taught or they were all visiting.
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As it was MB on a Sunday you could expect a number of incorrect calls. How can one assume that 17/35 was not in use? It may not have been on the ATIS but there may have been a one off arrival. That's why all runways are now considered as "active."
squawk, you don't use YMMB much do you? the end of 35L extends past the taxi way (before the taxiway was modified) and that intersection is the classic place for runway infringements which are a perennial problem for newbies at YMMB with its Five runways and multiple methods of getting just about anywhere. If 31 is in use then you will be crossing 35 L&R & 22 somewhere.
the startup request was brought in because the circuit limit is about eight and things can get quite busy some days.
the startup request was brought in because the circuit limit is about eight and things can get quite busy some days.
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Is the new class d proceedure solving an actual "problem" (that caused any accident or near miss) that occurred under GAAP, or just a new and unnecessary complication?
Simple is usually better - a motto CASA and Airservices live by!
Simple is usually better - a motto CASA and Airservices live by!
Man, that's a lot of potentially safety-critical items in one clearance.
I think the generally accepted number of clearance items (or instruction items) per transmission is no more than three.
I think the generally accepted number of clearance items (or instruction items) per transmission is no more than three.
Thread Starter
How often would everyone be operating on 31 all day and a Citation or bigger needs to come in on 35; does that ever happen? (Keeping in mind that they are only on 31 in the first place due to the strong crosswind on 35)
It only seems to have the high number of runway incisions surely because you have to be cleared to cross every one now days? Or is it that a clearance is required because they need to be in 2-way comms with everyone? Seems like it fixes one problem but causes many more.
It only seems to have the high number of runway incisions surely because you have to be cleared to cross every one now days? Or is it that a clearance is required because they need to be in 2-way comms with everyone? Seems like it fixes one problem but causes many more.
The readback ain't all that difficult with a bit of planning - from the southern runup bay you would be expecting Bravo to Bravo 3 (especially if other traffic had been given the same instruction), hence expecting the clearances to cross the three runways - so you'd be prepared pencil at the ready to copy down a fairly long taxi instruction (or maybe even have it already written down to tick off).
Thread Starter
I fear that if you tried to write it down you'd be hassled for your read back before you'd finished !
Admittedly not an issue depending on which runway is in use.
Admittedly not an issue depending on which runway is in use.
How often would everyone be operating on 31 all day and a Citation or bigger needs to come in on 35; does that ever happen? (Keeping in mind that they are only on 31 in the first place due to the strong crosswind on 35)
It only seems to have the high number of runway incisions surely because you have to be cleared to cross every one now days? Or is it that a clearance is required because they need to be in 2-way comms with everyone? Seems like it fixes one problem but causes many more.
It only seems to have the high number of runway incisions surely because you have to be cleared to cross every one now days? Or is it that a clearance is required because they need to be in 2-way comms with everyone? Seems like it fixes one problem but causes many more.
Exactly this situation occurred yesterday (Sunday). Operations on 31 and Citation with a suspect engine surge was asking for crosswind component on 35 in case they wanted to try it. As it happened they landed on 31R anyway. Class D does assume every runway is active or potentially active and this is why. Its only the fact YMMB has so many runways (gee aren't we lucky) that it becomes so complex.
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I'm with Squawk7700 on this one. Depending on which runway(s) they are using, especially 31/13, the instructions and read backs required are far too long and complex, especially for student pilots (or more mature ones like me with a short memory span!). It jams things up with constant corrections turning one call into 3 by the time they get it right.
As far as I'm concerned, it worked fine the way it was when it was a GAAP and even prior to that. Even with the new system, there are still runway incursions happening. Just because the read back is correct doesn't seem to stop people getting distracted or unsure of where they are when they finally do get to cross the 3rd runway via the 4th taxiway in the readback, and stuff it up!
I don't have any figures to back up what I'm about to say, but 10 or 15 years ago there was a lot more traffic using MB than there is now, or at least that's the way it seemed when I was waiting in the queue behind at least 5 others at the holding point trying to get away. There were no long winded radio calls required back then, and the system worked fine.
As far as I'm concerned, it worked fine the way it was when it was a GAAP and even prior to that. Even with the new system, there are still runway incursions happening. Just because the read back is correct doesn't seem to stop people getting distracted or unsure of where they are when they finally do get to cross the 3rd runway via the 4th taxiway in the readback, and stuff it up!
I don't have any figures to back up what I'm about to say, but 10 or 15 years ago there was a lot more traffic using MB than there is now, or at least that's the way it seemed when I was waiting in the queue behind at least 5 others at the holding point trying to get away. There were no long winded radio calls required back then, and the system worked fine.
Once upon a time AMMB (pre YMMB) was an all over field. I recall taking off and landing on 27 Grass towards the old tower.... Yes the runways were there, but no cones or gable markers. Once the runway lights went in, it all started to change. Back then just one frequency meant that calls were minimal on ground and in the air. Some change is good but one does have to ask if it could not be made more simple??? But then the procedures are now dictated by ICAO, so that is the way it is (sadly). Training is an issue with this also.
In all honesty I think people make it far more difficult for themselves than it needs to be. Personally I don't remember the actual clearance given, what I do is watch the chart as they're giving me a clearance and mentally follow along that path and then read back the path, if there is a runway and I haven't been given clearance then I'm imagining myself getting to that runway and stopping and thusly my readback will be that, also means that I've given the actual route some thought as opposed to a bunch of numbers and letters that have been given to me.