Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions
Reload this Page >

Watch out for AMSA advice – you could die!

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Watch out for AMSA advice – you could die!

Old 24th Apr 2016, 13:05
  #81 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,599
Likes: 0
Received 65 Likes on 26 Posts
ATSB were simply quoting the claim of the ATC in relation to a VFR pilot constantly announcing on an ATC frequency.

Surely the same excuse will be offered if a similar problem exists in the future. It sounds a reasonable explanation to me . It's why other regulators do not allow VFR to make announcements on ATC separation control frequencies.
Dick Smith is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2016, 13:27
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Up The 116E, Stbd Turn at 32S...:-)
Age: 82
Posts: 3,093
Received 44 Likes on 20 Posts
Hey Mr Fokker,

You must have a BIG Fokker and a BIG wallet to put all of that into your Fokker.....

I've only got a 'little fokker' and a little fokking wallet to finance my little fokker....

No Cheers....cain't afford it.....
Ex FSO GRIFFO is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 01:57
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Is Australia a ICAO member?

http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/20...%20-%20rev.pdf




5. ICAO requires that all aircraft monitor 121.5 at all times in areas where ELTs must be carried (which includes the whole of Australia).

6. ICAO recommends that all aircraft monitor 121.5 at all times to the extent possible.


CASA is responsible for implementing Australia's obligations under Annexes 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 14 and 18 of the Chicago Convention

Last edited by Band a Lot; 25th Apr 2016 at 02:37. Reason: extra info
Band a Lot is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 02:20
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: AUSTRALIA
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Buckshot. No not news. It's well known. Look up atsb report 199601917 re a serious breakdown of separation between a 747 and a BA146 On 21 June 1996.
OK, so it was only one incident, 20 years ago, not many more as you inferred and there were other more serious causal factors than communicating with a VFR aircraft who was being provided with a RAS.

Given the ATC vertical resectorisation since then, the likelihood has been reduced.
buckshot1777 is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 02:34
  #85 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,599
Likes: 0
Received 65 Likes on 26 Posts
I know if I was a professional ATC doing Sydney departures I wouldn't want aircraft in the light aircraft lane yakking on my frequency.

There are plenty of frequencies available for VFR to do that !

But you have a different view.
Dick Smith is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 05:24
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Perth
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 1 Post
Getting back to the original post.

So you are Autorotating from 1000agl in your R22 after the engine/drive belts/clutch shaft fails. Which hand do you use to activate the ELT/PLB? The one that is preserving your life by holding the collective lever down? or The one that is preserving your life by guiding you to a place of landing and ensuring you have adequate airspeed to pull off the landing? Which hand do you use to change radio frequencies for that matter?

The truth is, if you are concentrating on anything other than landing the machine at the best available or only spot....you aren't going to make it!

So the answer is, you put out your Mayday call on which ever frequency you have selected at the time. Once safely on the ground....worry about the rest.

If in a fixed wing and you have a little more time it makes sense to use 121.5. You may not be in radio range of anyone on local LOW area frequency and any jet traffic will be on a HIGH area frequency.

Forget about groping around trying to find/turn on your ELT/PLB... what bloody nonsense! From 1000' you should be concentrating only on flying the aircraft.

Furthermore... It is almost a guarantee that jet traffic somewhere will hear you on 121.5, unless of course there is a bloody ELT squawking its head off.
F.Nose is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 06:41
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In a chopper you still need to aviate, navigate communicate and if you were just in communication with someone you could make a call possibly or you could have 121.5 selected for transmitting and switch to Area when a call is required.


switching on your PLB prior to impact is great if possible but it has a 60 second delay before transmitting so must survive the impact to help at low levels.


It is up to the pilot to determine the best frequency to make a emergency call on based on best chance of being heard.


If as is required all aircraft monitor 121.5, then unless you are currently chatting with someone on a frequency obviously the best emergency frequency based on chance of being heard would be 121.5. Simply I think, many have found that boring and prefer some other channel that is not in the interest of safety.
Band a Lot is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 07:06
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,693
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If as is required all aircraft monitor 121.5, then unless you are currently chatting with someone on a frequency obviously the best emergency frequency based on chance of being heard would be 121.5. Simply I think, many have found that boring and prefer some other channel that is not in the interest of safety.
What other channel? You get the ABC on the ADF, not a comms radio. You can listen to the ABC on ADF or you iPhone via Bluetooth and still have a listening watch on 121.5. Anyone cruising above 3,000 ft AGL who doesn't have the second radio tuned to 121.5 is guilty of poor airmanship.

Anyone cruising below 3,000ft is in a J3 cub and having a blast with the radio turned off.
Old Akro is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 07:12
  #89 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,599
Likes: 0
Received 65 Likes on 26 Posts
Re ICAO - we are a sovereign country and only have to notify a difference. So I am not so sure about "requires"

However as I and others have said in most cases 121,5 is the best frequency to have pre selected for a mayday call.

AMSA should correct their information.
Dick Smith is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 07:45
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 5,272
Received 410 Likes on 202 Posts
Band a Lot and yr right seem to share a common characteristic of selective stupidity. Must be very debilitating to be unable to post anything but incoherent drivel one day, yet be able to structure coherent sentences and arguments the next. It must be fantastic to be able occasionally to cite ICAO recommendations with crystal clarity despite the disability. Whatever the medicine is, keep it up!

Don't conflate the 'obligation' (or ICAO recommendation) to monitor 121.5 with the frequency on which a voice communication is most likely to result in timely assistance.

Who said this:
It is up to the pilot to determine the best frequency to make a emergency call on based on best chance of being heard.
As I've said before, if you want to put all your MAYDAY eggs in the 121.5 basket, go for it. Broadcast long and loud on 121.5. There are lots of people monitoring 121.5.

Others can choose to activate their ELT or PLB (or in my case, both) to take advantage of all those people monitoring 121.5, and the satellites listening to 406, as well as broadcast a MAYDAY on Area.

But I'm stupid.
Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 09:04
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"Re ICAO - we are a sovereign country and only have to notify a difference."


That after much searching I can not find. But as above it is CASA to implement Annex 6. That includes this "ICAO requires that all aircraft monitor 121.5 at all times in areas where ELTs must be carried (which includes the whole of Australia)."


"CASA is responsible for implementing Australia's obligations under Annexes 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 14 and 18 of the Chicago Convention"


source -https://infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/safety/ssp/chapter_1.2.aspx
Band a Lot is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 09:10
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Lead as you are making your call on Area and the other good folk are all monitoring 121.5 as well as maybe Area.


Your call will be very much interrupted with a dam awful repeating serein like noise that will grab all others attention, but not your actual call.
Band a Lot is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 10:23
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Perth
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
PLBs/ETLs should have pre-recorded message in mp3 format on a SD stick.

I have dodgy football team theme song cards that can do better.
AbsoluteFokker is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 11:12
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Moved beyond
Posts: 1,169
Received 83 Likes on 48 Posts
Band a Lot:

https://infrastructure.gov.au/aviati...national/icao/

Standards and Recommended Practices (SARPs)

The Chicago Convention provides (Article 37) for the Council of ICAO to make standards and recommended practices dealing with a wide range of matters concerned with the safety, regularity and efficiency of air navigation. The current standards and recommended practices are published by ICAO as Annexes to the Chicago Convention. This list also shows the agency responsible for each Annex.

More information about Annexes is available from the ICAO website. Copies of the annexes are available from ICAO or they may be accessed at major libraries. Annexes may also be inspected at the Library of the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development, Canberra telephone (02) 6274 7641 (business hours).


Notification of Differences to Standards and Recommended Practices

Article 38 of the Convention requires, where a State finds it impracticable to comply in all respects with a standard, or to bring its own regulations or practices into full accord with a standard, that notification be given to ICAO.

Such notification is referred to as a “difference” and is published by ICAO in Supplements to each Annex.

Contracting States are also required by Annex 15 to publish their differences in their Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP). The Australian AIP is published by Airservices Australia.
BuzzBox is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 12:49
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dog House
Age: 49
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
OK Buzzbox the same department says this.

https://infrastructure.gov.au/aviati...apter_1.2.aspx


"CASA is responsible for implementing Australia's obligations under Annexes 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 14 and 18 of the Chicago Convention"


Annex 6 being the key.




As a side note - a call on 121.5 is not only more likely to be heard, but also by aircraft that will record any important information said on a CVR. It alone may be a thing to save a few lives.
Band a Lot is offline  
Old 25th Apr 2016, 23:32
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Moved beyond
Posts: 1,169
Received 83 Likes on 48 Posts
Band a Lot:

Yes, CASA is responsible for implementing Australia's obligations under the various Annexes of the Chicago Convention. Nevertheless, if a State finds it "impracticable" to comply with ICAO SARPS, it only has to notify a "difference" to ICAO. Without getting into the 121.5 argument, Australia has filed 100s of differences with ICAO - they are published as a supplement to the AIP. The current supplement is available on the Airservices website:

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...p/s15-h104.pdf
BuzzBox is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2016, 04:24
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: QLD - where drivers are yet to realise that the left lane goes to their destination too.
Posts: 3,319
Received 174 Likes on 70 Posts
In 10 years on the console, I heard 4 Mayday calls, one on area, the other three on HF (it was a Designated Remote Area). All were answered either by me or another ground station. One of the HF ones was a relay (maybe), and was from another pilot who witnessed the crash, (the victim had no time to transmit, we had VHF in the CCT there and he said nothing on VHF while airborne). It would be interesting to know how many are actually relayed in by other aircraft, be they high flyers hearing something on 121.5, or otherwise. This whole argument may in fact be pointless.
Traffic_Is_Er_Was is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2016, 05:38
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,693
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Traffic etc...

Thanks for a post with something objective.

A year or so, I had a gear issue in the circuit in Bourke and had trouble on Area.

I've also had to relay calls to airlines that were not reachable on area (Merimbula)

And I regularly fly through the blackspot near Nhill.

My memory is hazy, but I reckon once I had a call relayed to me from an airline on 121.5 - or vice versa. But I can't recall the circumstance. A faulty Comm1 may have been involved.

So, while I hear your comments, I still mistrust Australia's VHF network and I think its getting worse, not better with technology. So, I'd rather have comm2 on 121.5 rather than sitting fat dumb & happy with it on some irrelevant CTAF frequency from miles behind.
Old Akro is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2016, 08:36
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Australia/India
Posts: 5,272
Received 410 Likes on 202 Posts
**sigh**

Who said don't monitor 121.5?

Who said leave your spare VHF on an operationally irrelevant frequency?

Lead Balloon is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2016, 06:45
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Up The 116E, Stbd Turn at 32S...:-)
Age: 82
Posts: 3,093
Received 44 Likes on 20 Posts
From CASA today.....

"Radio frequency discussion paper
A discussion paper is to be released to canvass issues relating to radio frequency use by pilots operating by the visual flight rules in uncontrolled airspace. This follows a teleconference between CASA and Regional Airspace and Procedures Advisory Committee conveners in April 2016. The meeting was called by CASA’s Director of Aviation Safety Mark Skidmore after continued debate in the aviation community about the most appropriate frequency to choose when operating outside controlled airspace at or near aerodromes not marked on aeronautical charts. CASA has previously advised that the most appropriate frequency to use in class G airspace at or near unmarked aerodromes is the VHF area frequency. However, some pilots are still using the multicom frequency 126.7 which may be causing some confusion. The discussion paper will be released during 2016 and CASA will be looking for everyone from sports pilots to regular public transport operators to comment on the issues. CASA will carefully consider all viewpoints before reaching a final position on the most appropriate frequency use in class G airspace. Until the consultation process is finalised CASA urges all pilots to follow the current advice on frequency choice in class G airspace which is to use the VHF area frequency.

Find the advisory information on operations at non-controlled aerodromes."

So there......

Cheers

Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 27th Apr 2016 at 07:42. Reason: Punctuation......is "everything".....
Ex FSO GRIFFO is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.