Watch out for AMSA advice – you could die!
But, somewhere remote, being picked up by an overhead airline might be more reliable than ATC.
And the overhead airline aircraft will be monitoring .... Area and 121.5.
And an aircraft that is in range to hear a transmission on 121.5 is in range to hear a transmission on Area.
I ask again: Walk me through the disadvantages of activating my ELT or PLB as well as transmitting a MAYDAY on Area. It seems to me that I'm calling for help on 3 frequencies (121.5, 406 and Area), rather than just 1 frequency (121.5).
BTW: I don't particularly care what others choose to do to maximise their chances of getting assistance quickly in an emergency. I'm interested in my own backside and those of my passengers. I'm therefore keen to understand the disadvantages of having activation of my ELT (a half second action) and broadcast of MAYDAY on Area as SOP initial actions in an emergency.
Also BTW: I monitor 121.5 on all cross country flights.
Thread Starter
You are not well informed. In many areas in Australia the high level airlines are on an " area " frequency that is not marked on charts. The system is a complete stuff up.
In many areas in Australia the high level airlines are on an " area " frequency that is not marked on charts.
Last edited by BuzzBox; 20th Apr 2016 at 00:42.
You are not well informed. In many areas in Australia the high level airlines are on an " area " frequency that is not marked on charts. The system is a complete stuff up.
- the 'high level airlines' will hear my beacon on 121.5
- anyone else within range at lower levels will hear my MAYDAY on Area, and
- those MEOSAR satellites will hear my beacon on 406 and relay the GPS position info.
You seem to be advocating putting all your emergency eggs in one basket: MAYDAY on 121.5. I prefer to use every available tool (and still have the option to broadcast a MAYDAY on 121.5).
Charles Darwin will sort out who's right and who's wrong.
(Don't try to bring logic into this, Buzz.
)
Thread Starter
In busy areas under the J curve I understand that many airlines are on the frequencies marked on charts. And only one call is necessary at the wrong time to block an important ATC instruction. That's why in other countries VFR are prohibited from making announcements and having discussions on control frequencies. Derr- commonsense.
Thread Starter
Pazbot. Really simple. " radio check on 121.5. - anyone copy?"
You will get an immediate answer nearly every time.
Yes. Of course I would turn on my beacon when practical to do so. This thread is looking at the AMSA statement on the best frequency to have preselected.
You will get an immediate answer nearly every time.
Yes. Of course I would turn on my beacon when practical to do so. This thread is looking at the AMSA statement on the best frequency to have preselected.
Even if that is true, Dick, when I am in a place where it is true:
- the 'high level airlines' will hear my beacon on 121.5
- anyone else within range at lower levels will hear my MAYDAY on Area, and
- those MEOSAR satellites will hear my beacon on 406 and relay the GPS position info.
- the 'high level airlines' will hear my beacon on 121.5
- anyone else within range at lower levels will hear my MAYDAY on Area, and
- those MEOSAR satellites will hear my beacon on 406 and relay the GPS position info.
With the low GA traffic density that we have - the chances that someone GA will hear you on area frequency anywhere that you won't force land near a house is tattslotto territory.
With the poor coverage our ATC VHF system has at low levels (below 10,000ft), frankly I don't want to bet my life on a call on area frequency being heard.
If you go down in the metropolitan or farming areas of Australia, frankly this is all redundant because someone will see you.
The objective is not to declare an emergency or tell someone what happened. The objective is solely to have someone come to your aid on the ground. A farmer seeing you and calling 000 will do it.
In terms of a radio call, the highest probability that someone will hear you is an airline on 121.5.
ELT's are fine in theory, and psychologically comforting, but frankly the evidence overwhelming that they don't go off reliably in a crash. I might add that despite knowing this, we installed a 406 MHz ELT as part of our ADS-B upgrade.
If your aircraft still has an old 121.5 ELT, its batteries by now are very suspect. And beacon broadcasts on 121.5 are very difficult to locate. 121.5 has very marginal benefit for beacon transmission. If you don't have a 406 MHz ELT with GPS interlink, you're better off with an EPIRB.
Which brings us to a PLB or EPIRB. Where is yours? In the bottom of a flight bag? When will you trigger it? In flight, will you have time or be busy flying the aircraft and dealing with the emergency? On the ground, will you be conscious? Do your passengers know how to set it off? Have you briefed them? Do they know where to find it?
Frankly, I think the logic is inescapable that you should be monitoring 121.5 and that using it for an emergency call should be part of your emergency protocol
ELT's are fine in theory, and psychologically comforting, but frankly the evidence overwhelming that they don't go off reliably in a crash.
I might add that despite knowing this, we installed a 406 MHz ELT as part of our ADS-B upgrade.
If your aircraft still has an old 121.5 ELT, its batteries by now are very suspect.
And beacon broadcasts on 121.5 are very difficult to locate. 121.5 has very marginal benefit for beacon transmission. If you don't have a 406 MHz ELT with GPS interlink, you're better off with an EPIRB.
Which brings us to a PLB or EPIRB. Where is yours? In the bottom of a flight bag?
When will you trigger it? In flight, will you have time or be busy flying the aircraft and dealing with the emergency?
On the ground, will you be conscious? Do your passengers know how to set it off? Have you briefed them? Do they know where to find it?
Frankly, I think the logic is inescapable that you should be monitoring 121.5 and that using it for an emergency call should be part of your emergency protocol
If the assumption is that people are flying around with old 121.5 ELTs with time expired batteries, and a PLB in the bottom of a flight bag that's inaccessible and impractical to activate because no one has practised or been briefed on the process, I agree absolutely: Those people should cry for help long and hard on 121.5.
But please don't assume everyone's that stupid.
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Quote - "And frankly, so far as I can tell, you've not explained the disadvantages of broadcasting a MAYDAY on Area."
I have not read on here that anyone does not monitor 121.5 (particularly remote x country) and that the airlines all monitor 121.5 and not all airlines will be on "your Area" frequency.
So the disadvantage of a Mayday call on Area is a lower target audience number.
If a cockpit fire and only 1 short call before comms lost, would you rather a small/none audience listening or all available listening?
P.S. always set off beacon before impact and check the old batteries in the old fixed 121.5 ELT units many were just D cells and at least they have a G switch.
I have not read on here that anyone does not monitor 121.5 (particularly remote x country) and that the airlines all monitor 121.5 and not all airlines will be on "your Area" frequency.
So the disadvantage of a Mayday call on Area is a lower target audience number.
If a cockpit fire and only 1 short call before comms lost, would you rather a small/none audience listening or all available listening?
P.S. always set off beacon before impact and check the old batteries in the old fixed 121.5 ELT units many were just D cells and at least they have a G switch.
But Band, you keep overlooking or avoiding the fact that I already have a plan to transmit on 121.5 (and 406): with (1) the ELT fitted to the aircraft (1 second to switch on) (2) the PLB on my hip (3 seconds to extend the antenna and push the activate button) in accordance with practised procedure and (3), if I have pax, by them activating the spare PLB in the pocket behind my seat in accordance with the pre-briefed procedure.
If there is anyone in range to hear the beacon/s transmitting on 121.5, there's a fair chance they'll be in range to hear a MAYDAY on Area.
Then there's my HF that's already tuned to the Flightwatch frequency...
If people are flying around in remote areas with old ELTs and PLBs with time expired batteries, that's relevant to their procedures in an emergency, not mine. Charles Darwin will deal with them.
If there is anyone in range to hear the beacon/s transmitting on 121.5, there's a fair chance they'll be in range to hear a MAYDAY on Area.
Then there's my HF that's already tuned to the Flightwatch frequency...
If people are flying around in remote areas with old ELTs and PLBs with time expired batteries, that's relevant to their procedures in an emergency, not mine. Charles Darwin will deal with them.
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At 8 am 40 miles from a city on landing a bunch of roos jumped out, I ended up in the trees my legs pinned. My flight bag with 406 GPS ELT was thrown 6 inches from my reach and I was bleeding badly.
The airfield has low traffic use daily normally but has its own area frequency.
My radios work fine but no-one will can hear my calls for help. I see several jets flying over head, but they do not respond (I hear then talk to the city on the city area frequency). The airliners have now passed and my bleeding is worse so I call the city area frequency but as I am low they not hear my calls.
AS I start to fade I select 12
But time is gone just as I am - I lost my chance on my 1 call for help, and I could see the help pass overhead the contra trail were so clear and they will see me at 4.30pm when a chopper lands for the night stay.
The airfield has low traffic use daily normally but has its own area frequency.
My radios work fine but no-one will can hear my calls for help. I see several jets flying over head, but they do not respond (I hear then talk to the city on the city area frequency). The airliners have now passed and my bleeding is worse so I call the city area frequency but as I am low they not hear my calls.
AS I start to fade I select 12
But time is gone just as I am - I lost my chance on my 1 call for help, and I could see the help pass overhead the contra trail were so clear and they will see me at 4.30pm when a chopper lands for the night stay.
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Lead first hand I have seen the errors with the GPS location & secondly there is a 30 minute + delay in deployment unless confirmed ELT not set off by mistake (a Mayday call confirms emergency).
Last edited by Band a Lot; 20th Apr 2016 at 09:08.
I am genuinely sad to note that as a consequence of your terrible accident, Band, you've been rendered as mad a box of illiterate frogs. Hopefully medical science will achieve a breakthrough cure before it's too late.
The next time I do a forced landing in the middle of the Simpson or Strzlecki Desert and I'm not rescued within 30 minutes, I'll undoubtedly learn my lesson.
The next time I do a forced landing in the middle of the Simpson or Strzlecki Desert and I'm not rescued within 30 minutes, I'll undoubtedly learn my lesson.
In the 'ole days' LB, s t r a n g e r t h I n g s have happened.
And in the 'strangest places'....pure co-incidence mind you, like a Beaver Float plane 'putting down' just after t/o up in the Kimberley near Kuri Bay....couldn't be any more 'remote'...would you believe 'we' had a boat to him inside 20mins....even the pilot was surprised....pleasantly this time.....
So much for 'local knowledge'.....
Cheers
And in the 'strangest places'....pure co-incidence mind you, like a Beaver Float plane 'putting down' just after t/o up in the Kimberley near Kuri Bay....couldn't be any more 'remote'...would you believe 'we' had a boat to him inside 20mins....even the pilot was surprised....pleasantly this time.....
So much for 'local knowledge'.....
Cheers
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Actually its Cane Toads crossing the Little Sandy Desert @ Cotton Creek and a 441 that was bogged while turning so the Doctor told me.
Tallawana track and Canning Stock route was a bonus + knowing where masses of ULP/Distillates / Jet 1 and Avgas are gives me comfort to this day.
Tallawana track and Canning Stock route was a bonus + knowing where masses of ULP/Distillates / Jet 1 and Avgas are gives me comfort to this day.
OK. So it is now firmly established that responsible GA pilots monitor 121.5 if they have a VHF radio to do so. And Area Frequency if they have a radio to do so. And CTAF if they have a.....
Forget about ELTs, 'Band a Lot'. A modern, inexpensive 406 MHz PLB clipped to your belt would have been what you really needed that day. And you'd have had the absolute joy of knowing that you controlled your own destiny.
(That's assuming that you had it registered with AMSA.)
Forget about ELTs, 'Band a Lot'. A modern, inexpensive 406 MHz PLB clipped to your belt would have been what you really needed that day. And you'd have had the absolute joy of knowing that you controlled your own destiny.
(That's assuming that you had it registered with AMSA.)
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After 10 years or so responding / operating in the SAR environment, our SOP's, if we are in the poo, are to communicate on all appropriate VHF frequency's (the first being Area if we have established coms then 121.5) and whatever other means we have available at the time and THEN turn on the ELT / PLB .... the rational being when the ELT / PLB is activated communications on 121.5 (and frequencies close to this) may not be possible due to the homing signal.
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Forget about ELTs, 'Band a Lot'. A modern, inexpensive 406 MHz PLB clipped to your belt
Like the one out in the water from a driving MP from W.A 20 miles offshore (GPS 406 unit) cops did not know it did 121. 5 too , so said was not near hear on my base station.
Like the one out in the water from a driving MP from W.A 20 miles offshore (GPS 406 unit) cops did not know it did 121. 5 too , so said was not near hear on my base station.
