Royal QLD Aero Club in VA
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I have huge respect for anyone that took on multiple jobs, and slugged it out for five years to get their CPL.
But is this really the way of life we want in Australia? Sounds a lot like the private American system. Is it healthy (or morally right) to put a young person, at the whim of greedy private banks, shackling them with debt & compound interest at the start of their career? I look at the US private education model and shudder (as i do their private healthcare).
I'm glad we have social health care, and I'm glad we have a government loan system, that means we can fast track our education with a manageable debt. As someone who has high distinctions/honors in my education, i can tell you that i couldn't have excelled so well if i was juggling a full time workload at the same time.
I certainly DONT feel like im getting a handout, more a hand up. And i have every intention to repay my debt, I want success, I want to build my hours up and land a 6 figure job in the future. And every FEE HELP student i know feels the same. Sure there will be a dropouts (as with every profession), but there is no conspiracy for students to get qualified then stay poor the rest of our lives to avoid paying the loan. thats just silly.
Back on Topic,
I clearly remember a staff member telling my group "it's not important to join RQAC", which surprised me.. Personally i wanted to join. I love to idea of belonging to a historic aviation club. I still have my fingers crossed for RQAC, hopefully they pull through this.
But is this really the way of life we want in Australia? Sounds a lot like the private American system. Is it healthy (or morally right) to put a young person, at the whim of greedy private banks, shackling them with debt & compound interest at the start of their career? I look at the US private education model and shudder (as i do their private healthcare).
I'm glad we have social health care, and I'm glad we have a government loan system, that means we can fast track our education with a manageable debt. As someone who has high distinctions/honors in my education, i can tell you that i couldn't have excelled so well if i was juggling a full time workload at the same time.
I certainly DONT feel like im getting a handout, more a hand up. And i have every intention to repay my debt, I want success, I want to build my hours up and land a 6 figure job in the future. And every FEE HELP student i know feels the same. Sure there will be a dropouts (as with every profession), but there is no conspiracy for students to get qualified then stay poor the rest of our lives to avoid paying the loan. thats just silly.
Back on Topic,
I clearly remember a staff member telling my group "it's not important to join RQAC", which surprised me.. Personally i wanted to join. I love to idea of belonging to a historic aviation club. I still have my fingers crossed for RQAC, hopefully they pull through this.
Last edited by KyleTheAviator; 29th Mar 2016 at 10:50.
Kyle, I believe the issue with HECs and Vet Fee Help in relation to Aviation in particular is more in the people that decided that being a Pilot looks like fun, get into the course, go through it all, come out in massive amounts of debt at the end and then realise the hard yards that are required to get into that shiny jet job that pays a 6 figure salary.
Student Pilots coming through these "Academies" through places like GU are not being prepared for this, they are not being thoroughly warned about it. They're not told about the years they'll likely spend flying clapped out singles, the years they could potentially spend without work trying to get a job, let alone a first job! the years they'll spend away from home and often in remote locations. These are things that come with Aviation in general and take a certain type of person to be able to put up with them.
They're not really being told in any great details about how poor the pay scales are, how they'll be treated along the way by an unfortunate number of their Employers.
This isn't me saying "Aviation is terrible, get out whilst you still can!", I love it and wouldn't trade it in for anything but I'll tell you right now that in the short amount of time I've been in it I've gone through a lot of rather low periods, I've seen many of my good friends, people far more talented than I, go through the same, get beat down over and over again through either companies shutting down, slowing down or just the industry in general being slow and it really isn't something they put in the fancy brochures or expand upon during your training but it is often a reality.
Is it the Life we want in Australia? people working hard for their dreams and being dedicated to those dreams, having that dedication become more and more cemented and requiring a lot of very hard thought and decisions to be made before taking it on?
I wouldn't want to see people not being given the opportunity to achieve their dream or being disadvantaged just because of the life they were born into, but on the other end of the scale is giving it to people so easily that they never really think it through and just go for that "Dream". It sounds so wonderful to use that word but often Dreams have to give in to Reality, and often that happens when you're forced to take a reality check.
If you want a really worrying thought for the evening, go find the latest statistics showing those with Tertiary Education Qualifications that are broken down into how many of them are working full time in the Industry that their qualifications are actually for, now translate that over to Aviation (Take it with a giant grain of salt as the figures will be worse for Aviation IMHO) and then consider how many people are out there with close to or over $100,000 in debt to the Government that aren't even using those Qualifications. Consider that unlike other Degrees that cost a lot less, those people have hit their maximum amount they can borrow on the Government Schemes and then wonder how they'll ever manage to bounce back and get requalified in another Industry now that they have no other option but to pay it themselves out of their own pockets.
And yes, I know that everyone there is brimming with pride and expectations and hope for the future in that shiny jet, most of us were during training, it's afterwards that the cold hard reality hits and it's then you really need to pull the socks up and start actually working at it.
Always remembers that Universities are only Educational Organisations on the face of it, behind it all, they're a Business and Businesses don't exist to hand out free rides, they exist to make money and that money is based on getting people into their courses and that means marketing and marketing always means gilding the lily and putting the best foot forward which often means hiding the hard truths.
Student Pilots coming through these "Academies" through places like GU are not being prepared for this, they are not being thoroughly warned about it. They're not told about the years they'll likely spend flying clapped out singles, the years they could potentially spend without work trying to get a job, let alone a first job! the years they'll spend away from home and often in remote locations. These are things that come with Aviation in general and take a certain type of person to be able to put up with them.
They're not really being told in any great details about how poor the pay scales are, how they'll be treated along the way by an unfortunate number of their Employers.
This isn't me saying "Aviation is terrible, get out whilst you still can!", I love it and wouldn't trade it in for anything but I'll tell you right now that in the short amount of time I've been in it I've gone through a lot of rather low periods, I've seen many of my good friends, people far more talented than I, go through the same, get beat down over and over again through either companies shutting down, slowing down or just the industry in general being slow and it really isn't something they put in the fancy brochures or expand upon during your training but it is often a reality.
Is it the Life we want in Australia? people working hard for their dreams and being dedicated to those dreams, having that dedication become more and more cemented and requiring a lot of very hard thought and decisions to be made before taking it on?
I wouldn't want to see people not being given the opportunity to achieve their dream or being disadvantaged just because of the life they were born into, but on the other end of the scale is giving it to people so easily that they never really think it through and just go for that "Dream". It sounds so wonderful to use that word but often Dreams have to give in to Reality, and often that happens when you're forced to take a reality check.
If you want a really worrying thought for the evening, go find the latest statistics showing those with Tertiary Education Qualifications that are broken down into how many of them are working full time in the Industry that their qualifications are actually for, now translate that over to Aviation (Take it with a giant grain of salt as the figures will be worse for Aviation IMHO) and then consider how many people are out there with close to or over $100,000 in debt to the Government that aren't even using those Qualifications. Consider that unlike other Degrees that cost a lot less, those people have hit their maximum amount they can borrow on the Government Schemes and then wonder how they'll ever manage to bounce back and get requalified in another Industry now that they have no other option but to pay it themselves out of their own pockets.
And yes, I know that everyone there is brimming with pride and expectations and hope for the future in that shiny jet, most of us were during training, it's afterwards that the cold hard reality hits and it's then you really need to pull the socks up and start actually working at it.
Always remembers that Universities are only Educational Organisations on the face of it, behind it all, they're a Business and Businesses don't exist to hand out free rides, they exist to make money and that money is based on getting people into their courses and that means marketing and marketing always means gilding the lily and putting the best foot forward which often means hiding the hard truths.
It is possible to become a pilot without saddling yourself with loads of debt Kyle, whether that be a government loan or any other kind of loan. eg I couldn't afford to even have my first lesson until I was 27 and had got the wherewithal.
The Fee Help system is a huge burden on the taxpayer and creates elite academies that still don't seem to be able to use that advantage over other operators to provide a stable business for whatever reason.
It is fair enough to pay towards tuition fees but we are talking about massive sums of money here for a career that didn't have a shortage before these types of loans were set up and still doesn't. If you look for example at the health system which I'm told by many doctors could collapse without 457 visa holders then why not invest that kind of money training for a career that benefits society (seeing as society are paying for it) and has a genuine shortage? Do the taxpayers really owe anyone a living to follow a dream?
Of course if I'd been in your shoes I would have jumped at the chance if it had been available then. In my time there were cadetships that I turned down because I saw so many others get stung by them. I just feel that these things cause a big imbalance in the industry and when you have lost students to a school that provides "free flying" and then collapses anyway it's hard to stomach. It's also hard to see good colleagues have the rug pulled out from under them like this and for what?
The Fee Help system is a huge burden on the taxpayer and creates elite academies that still don't seem to be able to use that advantage over other operators to provide a stable business for whatever reason.
It is fair enough to pay towards tuition fees but we are talking about massive sums of money here for a career that didn't have a shortage before these types of loans were set up and still doesn't. If you look for example at the health system which I'm told by many doctors could collapse without 457 visa holders then why not invest that kind of money training for a career that benefits society (seeing as society are paying for it) and has a genuine shortage? Do the taxpayers really owe anyone a living to follow a dream?
Of course if I'd been in your shoes I would have jumped at the chance if it had been available then. In my time there were cadetships that I turned down because I saw so many others get stung by them. I just feel that these things cause a big imbalance in the industry and when you have lost students to a school that provides "free flying" and then collapses anyway it's hard to stomach. It's also hard to see good colleagues have the rug pulled out from under them like this and for what?
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Honestly folk...has anyone actually done any research on the corporate structure between RQAC and AAA - they are the same. AAA is only a business name against RQAC's ABN.
However, The separate company is ATAE were RQAC is only a shareholder. From what I heard on the aviation grapevine over the weekend is that Aviation Australia was actively stealing students, staff & contracts. Engineering teachers & managers have been head hunted for years.
In fact my research also found that Aviation Australia was set up in 2001 as a 'Pty Ltd' company. Meaning a company that is able to go into competition with other company's.
The administrator managing RQAC should pursue a misconduct action against the Qld Govt for going against their own 'Anti-Competitive Neutrality' policy as the Minister for Education is the responsible person, since that position appoints the Aviation Australia board.
Aviation Australia's is in fact owned by 4 departments of the Qld Govt that includes the Department of Employment & Training (DET)...the same dept who hands out the training contracts.
DET increased Aviation Australia's contracts each year, but maintained then later decreased ATAE & QIAE contracts.
Every other state only ever had one aviation engineering training provider, Queensland had 3 providers for 10+ years because Aviation Australia went into competition against the two existing providers.
It dropped to 2 providers in 2014...as Aviation Australia took QIAE's entire student base in June 2014, that forced QIAE into administration, in August 2014....lead by the very same teachers who were employed by Aviation Australia as of April of that year.
I also stumbled across information from a former govt. employee, where it was said at a Qld Govt state development meeting - 'haven't we closed those bastards yet' meaning ATAE & QIAE as they were the two founding aviation engineering training providers.
Everyone is assuming it is due to VET fee help & Griffith Uni...yes contributing factors...but did anyone bother to ask the ones in the know the staff, industry & former employees of the govt? Or if you are staff posting...you had a minor role & didn't know.
Aviation Australia have been given millions upon millions of public funds to dominate the industry. They have now added pilot training to their scope of registration.
In order for RQAC to even have a chance to compete against Aviation Australia they had to improve their existing facilities & gain additional accreditations. Same with QIAE they were forced into building a hangar at the Sunshine Coast Airport, as the same QLD government was to close Caloundra airport. (decision later reversed).
The QLD government has a network of numerous offshore departments, so they are told to market Aviation Australia. So in order for a provider to attract international work they must employ & fund their own consultants to find this work...all training providers with CRICOS do this, as RQAC didn't have the luxury of an endless bucket of resources like Aviation Australia does.
I even discovered, that because they are owned by the QLD government, they are in bed with Education Queensland, so all students in Qld only learn about Aviation Australia at school & not about other aviation providers.
Ask yourself why is a QLD provider setting up in Victoria when Victoria already have their own successful aviation industry? The TAFE in WA has adopted their training courseware and are paying a premium for this privilege.
Kangan & Padstow...once the biggest aviation training providers in Australia have now closed their aviation departments...why because of Aviation Australia taking Qantas.
So God help the Australian aviation industry now, expect more businesses to close their doors, as AA's mandate is to control the Australian aviation industry as a 'Pty Ltd' company.
However, The separate company is ATAE were RQAC is only a shareholder. From what I heard on the aviation grapevine over the weekend is that Aviation Australia was actively stealing students, staff & contracts. Engineering teachers & managers have been head hunted for years.
In fact my research also found that Aviation Australia was set up in 2001 as a 'Pty Ltd' company. Meaning a company that is able to go into competition with other company's.
The administrator managing RQAC should pursue a misconduct action against the Qld Govt for going against their own 'Anti-Competitive Neutrality' policy as the Minister for Education is the responsible person, since that position appoints the Aviation Australia board.
Aviation Australia's is in fact owned by 4 departments of the Qld Govt that includes the Department of Employment & Training (DET)...the same dept who hands out the training contracts.
DET increased Aviation Australia's contracts each year, but maintained then later decreased ATAE & QIAE contracts.
Every other state only ever had one aviation engineering training provider, Queensland had 3 providers for 10+ years because Aviation Australia went into competition against the two existing providers.
It dropped to 2 providers in 2014...as Aviation Australia took QIAE's entire student base in June 2014, that forced QIAE into administration, in August 2014....lead by the very same teachers who were employed by Aviation Australia as of April of that year.
I also stumbled across information from a former govt. employee, where it was said at a Qld Govt state development meeting - 'haven't we closed those bastards yet' meaning ATAE & QIAE as they were the two founding aviation engineering training providers.
Everyone is assuming it is due to VET fee help & Griffith Uni...yes contributing factors...but did anyone bother to ask the ones in the know the staff, industry & former employees of the govt? Or if you are staff posting...you had a minor role & didn't know.
Aviation Australia have been given millions upon millions of public funds to dominate the industry. They have now added pilot training to their scope of registration.
In order for RQAC to even have a chance to compete against Aviation Australia they had to improve their existing facilities & gain additional accreditations. Same with QIAE they were forced into building a hangar at the Sunshine Coast Airport, as the same QLD government was to close Caloundra airport. (decision later reversed).
The QLD government has a network of numerous offshore departments, so they are told to market Aviation Australia. So in order for a provider to attract international work they must employ & fund their own consultants to find this work...all training providers with CRICOS do this, as RQAC didn't have the luxury of an endless bucket of resources like Aviation Australia does.
I even discovered, that because they are owned by the QLD government, they are in bed with Education Queensland, so all students in Qld only learn about Aviation Australia at school & not about other aviation providers.
Ask yourself why is a QLD provider setting up in Victoria when Victoria already have their own successful aviation industry? The TAFE in WA has adopted their training courseware and are paying a premium for this privilege.
Kangan & Padstow...once the biggest aviation training providers in Australia have now closed their aviation departments...why because of Aviation Australia taking Qantas.
So God help the Australian aviation industry now, expect more businesses to close their doors, as AA's mandate is to control the Australian aviation industry as a 'Pty Ltd' company.
Last edited by flygirl2009; 29th Mar 2016 at 09:08.
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Sorry to have to say it flygirl but one would have to think that Aviation Australian would be the most obvious choice to pick up ATAE or at least the contract places the Qld Govt funds if the Administrators go that way.
In fact they may not even have to buy it as the VA may well simply mean that ATAE have triggered some contract clause for ceasing ops and all the students and funded places can be picked up by AA, in the way you mentioned happened to QIAE in 2014.
Agree about the non-competitive nature of AA (the Govt) competing with the private sector, especially when their shareholders (the Govt Depts) hand out the funding contracts. Its dead set wrong.
If they also get into the flying training side as well by buying RQAC/AAA from the Administrator they would be a category killer in the market and wipe out more flying schools as they would have a distinct uncompetitive advantage. And I don't mean just on Archerfield.
In fact they may not even have to buy it as the VA may well simply mean that ATAE have triggered some contract clause for ceasing ops and all the students and funded places can be picked up by AA, in the way you mentioned happened to QIAE in 2014.
Agree about the non-competitive nature of AA (the Govt) competing with the private sector, especially when their shareholders (the Govt Depts) hand out the funding contracts. Its dead set wrong.
If they also get into the flying training side as well by buying RQAC/AAA from the Administrator they would be a category killer in the market and wipe out more flying schools as they would have a distinct uncompetitive advantage. And I don't mean just on Archerfield.
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I have been asked to post the following to provide clarification that kyletheaviator is not the ex CP of RQAC.
The ex CP has been receiving messages via other means that has questioned the comments of kyletheaviator with people mistaking him for the poster.
Nothing against kyle or his opinons, but the CP of RQAC doesnt have a login and requested I claifiy the situation.
It is a very sad day for all the good staff and students involved in the situation at RQAC. I wish them all the best with the future. It they are reading this, remember you can call or message me at any time you want to chat.
Stretch
The ex CP has been receiving messages via other means that has questioned the comments of kyletheaviator with people mistaking him for the poster.
Nothing against kyle or his opinons, but the CP of RQAC doesnt have a login and requested I claifiy the situation.
It is a very sad day for all the good staff and students involved in the situation at RQAC. I wish them all the best with the future. It they are reading this, remember you can call or message me at any time you want to chat.
Stretch
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Hi Chance, if you compare apples to apples, Aviation Australia has the same accreditations as ATAE, so only benefit would be any 'cheap' aged plant & equipment. Yes you are right, my experience with similar govt. contracts is that there is always an automatic termination clause, if that company was to go into administration, so those students on funded programs (such as the apprentices), would automatically be passed over to another preferred supplier. Their funding bucket goes with the student. Considering there are no other training providers now in the Aviation Engineering market place, Aviation Australia would be the beneficiary for ATAE's engineering enrollments. Chance, it is hard enough now staying afloat as a flying school in this current economic environment, so yes Aviation Australia does have a distinct uncompetitive advantage that goes well beyond Archerfield.
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Haha yeah I'm definitely not the ex CP of RQAC, just a former student. Still dont know how/where im going to finish my training :/
Interesting post. Certainly doesn't sound fair, government competing with private sector, allocating it self funds/contracts. Definitely a conflict IMO.
So God help the Australian aviation industry now, expect more businesses to close their doors, as AA's mandate is to control the Australian aviation industry as a 'Pty Ltd' company
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VET FEE Help changes
So, it does 'beg the question'.....
How many GA 'aviators' are earning in excess of $54K,
And how many in excess of $42K....???
And, who are still in OZ...??
Form a 'q' to the left pleeze....Oi said the 'LEFT' Bloggs....
No Cheers, Nope! None At All!!
How many GA 'aviators' are earning in excess of $54K,
And how many in excess of $42K....???
And, who are still in OZ...??
Form a 'q' to the left pleeze....Oi said the 'LEFT' Bloggs....
No Cheers, Nope! None At All!!
As I said in my one of my longer rambling posts Ex FSO Griffo, the stats in general for Tertiary Educated people and whether they are actually working in the Industry that their Degree is for would probably be a good indicator, no use in a $60,000 degree in Engineering if one decides to instead go into the Hospitality Industry!
More specifically though, I would LOVE to see GUs own statistics on what percentage of their Alumni are working in the Aviation Industry full time....and then I'd like to see the real statistics
More specifically though, I would LOVE to see GUs own statistics on what percentage of their Alumni are working in the Aviation Industry full time....and then I'd like to see the real statistics
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Pull your head in. Every flying school sells the 'dream'. Love to see what percentage of any school's students are working in the industry. All I know is there are plenty of GU/AAA graduates working at QantasLink, Jetstar and Cathay.
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Less than a year ago I thought ATAE was doing quite well. They had won half the Qantas apprentices off Aviation Australia and all Virgin's apprentice/trainees.
Plus ATAE had their number of funded places increased whilst Aviation Australia's were cut.
Sorry but the RQAC/AAA situation, as tough a gig as it is, is firmly at the feet of management and board!
Plus ATAE had their number of funded places increased whilst Aviation Australia's were cut.
Sorry but the RQAC/AAA situation, as tough a gig as it is, is firmly at the feet of management and board!
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Many moons ago I did a pre apprenticeship in aircraft maintenance our class started the year with 12 people, 11 finished the year long course. About 60 motor mechanics did their pre appy course at same time next workshop all finished.
Of our 11 finishers 10 got jobs within 6 months max, 1 preferred the surf life style. We were told 15% of the motor mechanics got jobs after 12 months of finish &
heard no motor from them.
I know all 10 of my class completed their apprenticeships as we had 3 more years of Trade School together, I have lost touch with many over the last 30 years but I know at least 5 still playing the game, so only 4 I am not sure if they still are in aviation or not.
Due to our low numbers 11, our course was cut and never was held again - after 90% got lasting employment. The motor course still runs today at a maximum back then of 15% possibly having lasting employment.
Fact we had a far greater % and number of people (9 vs 10) gain an apprenticeship meant nothing!!!
Of our 11 finishers 10 got jobs within 6 months max, 1 preferred the surf life style. We were told 15% of the motor mechanics got jobs after 12 months of finish &
heard no motor from them.
I know all 10 of my class completed their apprenticeships as we had 3 more years of Trade School together, I have lost touch with many over the last 30 years but I know at least 5 still playing the game, so only 4 I am not sure if they still are in aviation or not.
Due to our low numbers 11, our course was cut and never was held again - after 90% got lasting employment. The motor course still runs today at a maximum back then of 15% possibly having lasting employment.
Fact we had a far greater % and number of people (9 vs 10) gain an apprenticeship meant nothing!!!
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hiwaytohell.
Touche. A great business gone west due to too much focus on AAA by an incompetent self-serving and self indulgent senior management and a Board who were asleep at the wheel or perhaps self serving as a mutual admiration society. Maybe the Board was a house divided - refer New Testament Mark 3.25. or Abe Lincoln in 1858. Tragic but may be an insight into the dysfunction of the Board and Management.
Some savy companies will pick it up from the VA and do well I suppose.
A cluster.
Touche. A great business gone west due to too much focus on AAA by an incompetent self-serving and self indulgent senior management and a Board who were asleep at the wheel or perhaps self serving as a mutual admiration society. Maybe the Board was a house divided - refer New Testament Mark 3.25. or Abe Lincoln in 1858. Tragic but may be an insight into the dysfunction of the Board and Management.
Some savy companies will pick it up from the VA and do well I suppose.
A cluster.
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I was speaking to someone I did my apprenticeship with last night, and as much as I hate to say it... kids these days aren't taught like we were. We were taught proper hand skills and how to use competently each tool in our tool box. We even manufactured our own tools, a solder sucker and a tap wrench. Both of still which work today and they were made almost thirty years ago. My friend is still in aircraft maintenance and he is also quite confident that I could walk back in and surpass current apprentices and trainees. This is not a brag, but despair in where the industry is now at. I'm out of maintenance at the moment but I came through in the era of the LAME Fed Sec.
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For any other VET Fee Help students like myself, who has been invoiced for flights/modules you have not yet received, contact [email protected]
They provide an insurance scheme that protects students from all RTO's if they fail while you have unused funds. They will pay you the funds that have not been used.
Example: if a module is $3,000 and you only used $500 worth of training, then you should get $2,500 back (saving you from unfair Vet Fee help debt)
They provide an insurance scheme that protects students from all RTO's if they fail while you have unused funds. They will pay you the funds that have not been used.
Example: if a module is $3,000 and you only used $500 worth of training, then you should get $2,500 back (saving you from unfair Vet Fee help debt)
VH-FTS, that was basically my point, I did make it in an earlier post that they all sell the "Dream" to Students, Universities IMHO are a bit more ruthless at it than say Aero Clubs or more traditional Flight Schools though. As I mentioned the Educational Organisation is their face but at the core they're a business and a business operates to make money.