Cessna missing off Byron
Appeared to impact at cruise speed. Surely an intentional impact would have been at a higher speed. Perhaps some "stress relieving" low flying gone wrong in the absence of solid evidence otherwise which probably only the family would know. Its not up to this forum to speculate on his mental state.
I did not say that Bob nor is that my suggestion. If anything the tests, medicals and rules should be relaxed.
In my opinion, there needs to be an avenue for aviation personnel (not only pilots) where they can seek confidential advice/support well before the individual's state of mind gets out of hand. The fear and possibility of shame, embarrassment and loss of job/licence MUST be completely removed from any form of assistance, be it medical or simply just a helpful encouraging/supportive conversation.
If he had done it in a car, it probably would not have got media attention, albeit very little if it did. However it happened in an aeroplane, and he was one of us - just like you and me. You or me could be next, and never say no it could not be, because circumstances and state of minds can change in a heart beat. Everyone is susseptable to depression/anxiety, you are a fool or very niave if you believe anyone is immune to it.
In my opinion, there needs to be an avenue for aviation personnel (not only pilots) where they can seek confidential advice/support well before the individual's state of mind gets out of hand. The fear and possibility of shame, embarrassment and loss of job/licence MUST be completely removed from any form of assistance, be it medical or simply just a helpful encouraging/supportive conversation.
If he had done it in a car, it probably would not have got media attention, albeit very little if it did. However it happened in an aeroplane, and he was one of us - just like you and me. You or me could be next, and never say no it could not be, because circumstances and state of minds can change in a heart beat. Everyone is susseptable to depression/anxiety, you are a fool or very niave if you believe anyone is immune to it.
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The funny thing about mental illness is that contrary to common belief it is just as physical of a problem as a mental one. As someone who once suffered from depression I had to fight the stigma that was 'He's just sad'.
Slowly the world appears to be opening their eyes to the causes and consequences of mental illness. The aviation industry desperately needs procedures put in place to deal with it; support networks, better education within the community as to the signs people display, and avenues for personnel to seek help in a safe and secure manner.
As a male my experience tells me that the struggle is somewhat harder, we feel shame, our pride and masculinity make us feel like we can't seek help. It will get to the point where you hit rock bottom, and from that point you make the decision to either end your life of seek help, we need to teach people to seek help before it reaches this point, as well as providing places for people to seek help.
As a survivor of depression and someone who hasn't shown any symptoms in the past 3 years, I find myself being able to pick those struggling in a crowd full of people, I don't believe it should be so difficult for others to start paying attention and learning what to look for.
Slowly the world appears to be opening their eyes to the causes and consequences of mental illness. The aviation industry desperately needs procedures put in place to deal with it; support networks, better education within the community as to the signs people display, and avenues for personnel to seek help in a safe and secure manner.
As a male my experience tells me that the struggle is somewhat harder, we feel shame, our pride and masculinity make us feel like we can't seek help. It will get to the point where you hit rock bottom, and from that point you make the decision to either end your life of seek help, we need to teach people to seek help before it reaches this point, as well as providing places for people to seek help.
As a survivor of depression and someone who hasn't shown any symptoms in the past 3 years, I find myself being able to pick those struggling in a crowd full of people, I don't believe it should be so difficult for others to start paying attention and learning what to look for.
An interesting blog here on pilot mental health (USA focused):
https://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2015...ly-ill-pilots/
https://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2015...ly-ill-pilots/
If a pilot is depressed because he (typically) lost a divorce, custody, or child support lawsuit, can’t he simply ground himself for a while? The answer is “yes” from the airline’s point of view. From a practical point of view the answer is “not” unless he wants to go to prison and never work again. Remember that if was worth suing he probably was earning towards the higher end of the pilot pay scale. There aren’t going to be any non-flying jobs with comparable pay. And he is depressed so who would hire him? Thus he has a child support and/or alimony order in place based on his $150,000/year pilot salary. If he can’t earn close to $150,000/year he won’t be able to pay this order, in which case he will join the roughly 1 in 7 child support payors who are imprisoned at some point for nonpayment (for not paying the court-ordered amount, Massachusetts offers the pilot a felony conviction, which means he won’t have an ATP certificate anymore and therefore won’t be able to work again, plus up to 10 years in prison). Thus the pilot is given a powerful incentive by the divorce court, his plaintiff, and all of the lawyers involved to keep flying the American public, regardless of how depressed or suicidal he is feeling.
Thus he has a child support and/or alimony order in place based on his $150,000/year pilot salary. If he can’t earn close to $150,000/year he won’t be able to pay this order, in which case he will join the roughly 1 in 7 child support payors who are imprisoned at some point for nonpaymen
This makes my blood boil!!
This kind of thing is more and more likely to happen with the passing of every day. Our CEO's are pocketing millions while the workforce is being ground into a stressed out pulp, devoid of any family time or lifestyle. Enough is enough already.
CASA: If you didn't care previously, you better start caring now, what happens when you get two guys/girls on a flight deck with severe life stresses? What then? How is your two people on the flight deck rule going to work when (not if) suicidal tendencies become the ubiquitous in your pilots psyche?
Airline management: You should hang your head in shame, you have caused this. Irrespective of whether you can make it look like you didn't, you have caused this. You and every other sniveling little bottom line watching manager, across every single toxic airline business unit, across this country have committed murder by proxy.
Pilots/engineers/cabin crew etc. reading this: If you are feeling like you are being crushed under the weight of the ****ty situation you are in, I urge every one of you to submit an ASIR or REPCON outlining the shameful treatment you are subjected to by your employer.
This is the warning shot for Australian aviation, CASA, Airline CEO's, politicians, fix this NOW before thing get worse.
Look after one another, your family and your workmates are all you have in this game. Get help if you need it!
This kind of thing is more and more likely to happen with the passing of every day. Our CEO's are pocketing millions while the workforce is being ground into a stressed out pulp, devoid of any family time or lifestyle. Enough is enough already.
CASA: If you didn't care previously, you better start caring now, what happens when you get two guys/girls on a flight deck with severe life stresses? What then? How is your two people on the flight deck rule going to work when (not if) suicidal tendencies become the ubiquitous in your pilots psyche?
Airline management: You should hang your head in shame, you have caused this. Irrespective of whether you can make it look like you didn't, you have caused this. You and every other sniveling little bottom line watching manager, across every single toxic airline business unit, across this country have committed murder by proxy.
Pilots/engineers/cabin crew etc. reading this: If you are feeling like you are being crushed under the weight of the ****ty situation you are in, I urge every one of you to submit an ASIR or REPCON outlining the shameful treatment you are subjected to by your employer.
This is the warning shot for Australian aviation, CASA, Airline CEO's, politicians, fix this NOW before thing get worse.
Look after one another, your family and your workmates are all you have in this game. Get help if you need it!
I'm sorry, but:
Could someone please explain why suicide is the no. 1 suspected factor here, as opposed to sudden, severe incapacitation, eg heart attack, loss of consciousness, etc? There have been numerous cases of the latter in flight.
What is the EVIDENCE of suicide?
Could someone please explain why suicide is the no. 1 suspected factor here, as opposed to sudden, severe incapacitation, eg heart attack, loss of consciousness, etc? There have been numerous cases of the latter in flight.
What is the EVIDENCE of suicide?
The media reports might be a good indication.
Blitz, I would like to think a lot of other people within the aviation industry have the same opinions. I certainly do.
Blitz, I would like to think a lot of other people within the aviation industry have the same opinions. I certainly do.
Last edited by Duck Pilot; 24th Mar 2016 at 21:34.
Well Blitz, that is all well and good if you want to make CEO's, CASA and airline management responsible for your life. I would suggest if you want to make anyone except yourself responsible for your life, you are already in trouble. I say this without prejudice to your opinion and without wanting to put fuel on a fire, just saying.
Thanks Duckie and Olllie for responding to my first post.
Thanks Duckie and Olllie for responding to my first post.
Ushuaia, I have no first hand knowledge of this event, but there is a lot of reading between the lines in the media which are often rather reserved in this. Especially the fact that the pilot made contact with loved ones before the presumably fatal flight.
As an aside - One media reported that the pilot appeared normal and relaxed prior to departure so it was unlikely anything premeditated. That may be true, but I offer the following. Many years ago now, I got to know and shared accommodation with a man who was rather withdrawn and not overly friendly. Seven months later he reappeared and was very friendly and relaxed. A different man. Refreshed after the break, I thought.
One week later he hanged himself.
As an aside - One media reported that the pilot appeared normal and relaxed prior to departure so it was unlikely anything premeditated. That may be true, but I offer the following. Many years ago now, I got to know and shared accommodation with a man who was rather withdrawn and not overly friendly. Seven months later he reappeared and was very friendly and relaxed. A different man. Refreshed after the break, I thought.
One week later he hanged himself.
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Seven months later he reappeared and was very friendly and relaxed. A different man. Refreshed after the break, I thought.
One week later he hung himself.
One week later he hung himself.
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" What is the EVIDENCE of suicide?"
Seems to be the SMS he sent his family (after take off & before "landing") also the phone call just prior to departure.
I only read that in the media so maybe wrong.
Seems to be the SMS he sent his family (after take off & before "landing") also the phone call just prior to departure.
I only read that in the media so maybe wrong.
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Hmmm, I lived in Lennox Head for a bit. The whole area is an funny farm of individuals who all appear to be on the edge of something. Sure is an interesting place to exercise your existential imperatives - yep that's what it was like.
Didn't agree with me in the long run so I left, but I could easily see how these so so called "delicate flowers" can get it all wrong with life's challenges.
Very sad indeed.
Didn't agree with me in the long run so I left, but I could easily see how these so so called "delicate flowers" can get it all wrong with life's challenges.
Very sad indeed.
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Interesting Cattletruck...never would have picked you as someone who resided in Lennox for a while...yes the entire area, as lovely as it is, has some homegrown strange types.....I beleive the push for anti immunisation was all the rage not long ago...and now they're having whopping cough infant fatalities...
But thread drift..sorry...
But thread drift..sorry...
I was diagnosed with depression four years ago, and have been working through it ever since. It's hard to describe the thought process and the lows you can go through when it's at its worst.
I implore anyone who feels like there isn't light at the end of the tunnel to have a crack at asking someone, anyone, for help. It doesn't have to be a shrink, it doesn't have to be a colleague, it can be as simple as explaining to your mate about why you feel down.
With the support of my employer and my mates, I'm feeling better than I have in my entire life, and flying. The only reason I got that support and thrown that lifeline was because I asked.
Together we're too strong to drown.
I implore anyone who feels like there isn't light at the end of the tunnel to have a crack at asking someone, anyone, for help. It doesn't have to be a shrink, it doesn't have to be a colleague, it can be as simple as explaining to your mate about why you feel down.
With the support of my employer and my mates, I'm feeling better than I have in my entire life, and flying. The only reason I got that support and thrown that lifeline was because I asked.
Together we're too strong to drown.
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Ha, this stuff is hilarious if it wasn't so legally serious.
The accusation you are all making is a commercial pilot committing suicide flying a light aircraft into the water at 110kts (below cruise speed for a 172) as reported by ATC.
No note etc to our knowledge to family or friends, made a personal phone call before departing heaven forbid! reported to be in good spirit by those that immediately saw him prior and those responsible for signing him out (note to those individuals if suspected anything), operated vfr at dusk in an area familiar to him but in conditions that where deteriorating, reportedly hit the water at certainly NOT an excessive speed to normal flight of a C172, considering Vmo to be around 205kts from memory.
Hmmm, sounds to me maybe we should wait for the report before concluding the possibility of a pilot committing suicide.
After all, GA aircraft are 100% reliable. (Sarcasm).
JMHO.
The accusation you are all making is a commercial pilot committing suicide flying a light aircraft into the water at 110kts (below cruise speed for a 172) as reported by ATC.
No note etc to our knowledge to family or friends, made a personal phone call before departing heaven forbid! reported to be in good spirit by those that immediately saw him prior and those responsible for signing him out (note to those individuals if suspected anything), operated vfr at dusk in an area familiar to him but in conditions that where deteriorating, reportedly hit the water at certainly NOT an excessive speed to normal flight of a C172, considering Vmo to be around 205kts from memory.
Hmmm, sounds to me maybe we should wait for the report before concluding the possibility of a pilot committing suicide.
After all, GA aircraft are 100% reliable. (Sarcasm).
JMHO.
Last edited by OnceBitten; 24th Mar 2016 at 22:16. Reason: Removed Juvenile remark.............