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lifejackets & legalities- bass strait

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lifejackets & legalities- bass strait

Old 23rd Feb 2016, 22:06
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As megan said, the numbers aren't good, depending where a ditching occurs a life jacket will do 3 tenths of f#@call. A raft will give you some hope, but you'll have to leave one of the kids at home
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Old 24th Feb 2016, 11:41
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I totally agree with you Dexta.


My "PFD Manual Level 150/150N" is manual for that very reason. And I bring it along when I go boating too.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 01:04
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The reason 'new battery' is in inverted commas, 'coz, as at 1/6/14, when I enquired last, they are a sealed unit and the battery cannot be accessed to be replaced.....they will sell you another at a 'reduced rate' instead....so the Canning Vale WA GME shop said....
Last time I replaced my GME GPS EPRIB, you could buy new ones from ebay cheaper than GME's battery replacement price. And they will cheerfully tell you this on the phone!
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 01:22
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Legalities aside, crossing Bass Strait, all a lifejacket is going to do is give you a false sense of security. You ain't going to last long, as in, all it will do is prolong the suffering.
I believe the Bass Straight survival time in the water is 20 minutes. In my mind altitude a) gives you the longest time between mayday and ditching so that the time to rescue is shorter and b) increases your chance of ditching near a ship or something.

But, you've got to love the question to a 747 pilot about why he flies a 4 engine 747 and the answer being because there are no aeroplanes with 5 engines.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 01:57
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Ahh but life jackets in Jet aircraft are a classic example of where the perception overrides reality. As far as I know (happy to be corrected) there has never been a life saved by a lifejacket in a jet aircraft. Either the crash was not survivable or the passengers/crew survived without needing them eg the hudson river. But still every flight carries them and we are told how to put them on every time.....

Back to little aircraft and this is another example of where CASA requiring approval leads to less safe outcomes. Most good fitting, comfortable, crotch strap equipped lifejackets do no carry the CASA seal of approval. Try going for a swim one day in a pool in a casa approved lifejacket. Then imagine doing is in the open ocean in rough water, dazed and confused having just watched your aircraft sink beneath the waves. Try the same thing with a modern life-jacket unapproved for aircraft but approved for sailing and then tell me you would be happy with a CASA approved one.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 06:48
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Either the crash was not survivable or the passengers/crew survived without needing them
Norfolk Island??????

But generally, I agree. I often wonder how many people would successfully get them on? I have put timex ones on and pulled the cord. Its not as easy as the cabin crew make out.
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 08:45
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After being the initial regs expert smart ass. Where does it say you need a "casa/aviation approved" lifejacket? Can't find it anywhere
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 09:19
  #28 (permalink)  
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from the same CAO 20.11

5.1.6 Life jackets must:

(a) comply with a standard approved by CASA; and

(b) be of an inflatable type; and

(c) except for an infant life jacket — have a whistle fitted in a suitable stowage.
What standard is approved by CASA?
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Old 25th Feb 2016, 23:06
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Yep old akro, Norfolk island is the one that comes closest to a lifejacket being useful and yet only half the occupants of the aircraft were wearing one when it ditched according to the ATSB report. All survived so you do have to wonder did the lifejacket add that much.

In smaller aircraft the impact with the water is much more likely to be survivable and so life jackets do make more sense. The kinetic energy in an impact at 40 knots is significantly less than one at 100 knots.

The coroners report into the 1998 hobart Yacht race has frightening reading about the real world performance of of lifejackets like what casa mandate.
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Old 2nd Apr 2016, 18:33
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As somebody the teaches HUET and sea survival I can't stress enough the importance of lifejackets and TRAINING.

It's all good and well to go and spend your hard earned dollars on a raft PFD's EPIRBS and so on but unless you have been trained to use it in an emergency you have as much hope of doing it right as I do of ever getting the money to finish my PPL.

If you are operation over cold water you need thermal protection

Here are two videos I use in my courses regarding cold water:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_96YEPAdA2Y
https://youtu.be/_96YEPAdA2Y

Cold water PFD
http://survitecgroup.com/products/shark-lap-jacket
Warm Water
http://survitecgroup.com/products/mk28-passenger
Spend the $450 and do a HUET course of you are operation over water on a frequent basis.

Last edited by Slameye; 2nd Apr 2016 at 18:44.
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Old 2nd Apr 2016, 19:33
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It's going back a long time, but in the late '60s we did a test of the available life jackets and not too many got the nod, principally because they would not float an unconscious person face up, or on their back if you like, keeping the face out of the water. Spray hoods are another necessity, as it's been found folks drown from wind driven spray and spume.
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Old 28th Oct 2020, 11:57
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John / Tullamarine
Bristol 170 mk. 21/A1 VH-SJQ Air Express MEB/LST
I have read the final accident report. I see that the
radio officer was holder of a PPL licence in addition
to the required radio operators licence. Can you
remember if the P1 and R/O were originally rostered
to fly this flt on 10/05/1975. or was one of them a
replacement for someone reporting sick?
When ditching, Do you have an idea if the a/c would
have been "Nose high" with both wings level, before
contact with the sea ?
I remember my Flying Instructor Sterling Preston,
mentioning this accident, whilst flying with him at BWU
I think he may have flown for Air Express before
moving to NSW,

Lance Shippey
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Old 28th Oct 2020, 12:16
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Let's not forget the tragic loss of the Grand Commander VH-WJC on the 17th July 1983.
One person in water sighted by numerous aircraft; deficiencies in SAR Ops led to the loss of this life.
Life jacket training is very important.
I know of one biz-jet operator; Gulfstream.. where the owner and his entire family has done the water swim etc at the QF facility in Sydney. Money well spent!
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Old 28th Oct 2020, 20:23
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Best jackets today made by Spinlock (UK) but not cheap and you would need to convert to manual inflation. They can be fitted with a spray hood.

https://www.spinlock.co.uk/en/categories/lifejackets

I've lost two friends to drownings in what were normal weather conditions in what should have been perfectly survivable situations. In both cases the man overboard was observed, rescue started immediately and help arrived within five minutes, which proved too late. RIP Tosser and Maxie (ex TAA).
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Old 28th Oct 2020, 22:34
  #35 (permalink)  
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Can you remember if the P1 and R/O were originally rostered to fly this flt on 10/05/1975. or was one of them a replacement for someone reporting sick?

I was an engineering consultant to Air Express at the time but I have no idea what the crew scheduling may have been for the flight. The loss was a great sadness to me as the RO was one of the brightest CPL students with whom I have ever had the pleasure to work.

Do you have an idea if the a/c would
have been "Nose high" with both wings level, before contact with the sea ?

That would be total conjecture. However, there was no suggestion that I can recall that there may have been a loss of control.

Sterling Preston ...
he may have flown for Air Express before moving to NSW,

Stirl and I go back a long way .. I don't recall that he flew with Air Express but you would need to speak to him on that point. He was with EWA for many years and, last I heard, is still in Albury running Oberon. Probably 4-5 years or so since I last had contact with him.
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Old 30th Oct 2020, 09:48
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John Tullamarine,
Thanks for the info. I believe Stirling is still at
Albury. I remember with great affection, the time
I shared the flying with Stirling and Cheryl, his
wife in VH-SVW PA28. We flew Bankstown /
Canberra / Albury / Moorabbin. I was to continue
my training with Sterling over a weekend in
Victoria. I stayed with Stirling's Mum and Dad,
We visited some great airfields, one restoring
1950 light aircraft. The highlight was landing the
Cherokee at Tullamarine, and being asked by
ATC if I could increase speed to to 130kts, as
I had an Air Nauru B727 behind me on finals.
Having reconfirmed Cherokee Sierra Victor
Whiskey, The Aussie Air Nauru captain replied.
"Don't worry mate, Your bloody wings will come
off, I'll slow down". I did a flapless at MEL. and
cleared the main pretty sharpish.
Stirling had taught me "Stabilized Approach
Concept'", which I found easy, It got a couple of
comments, when getting checked out in the U.K.
He also worked before BWU in Malaysia as
instructor with MAS,

Lance Shippey
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