Commercial Pilots who don't know about piston engines
Join Date: Jul 2007
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That's because it's the quickest practical way to achieve the scientifically-proven desired setting for a conforming engine, cleared.
PS: The single most important reason for my decision to attend an APS course was the opportunity to meet and draw on the wisdom of a person who's forgotten more about piston aero engine operation than anyone has ever learned in the third world of GA that is Australia - Mr John Deakin. You can't do that by reading on-line materials.
PS: The single most important reason for my decision to attend an APS course was the opportunity to meet and draw on the wisdom of a person who's forgotten more about piston aero engine operation than anyone has ever learned in the third world of GA that is Australia - Mr John Deakin. You can't do that by reading on-line materials.
long list…………clearedtorenter;
Very funny, I admire a good sense of humour. Pity you fail to understand how to apply science in the cockpit.
But with posts like this;
My POH says 'For best economy, operate at peak TIT' (about 9 times actually)
Then it says 'Recommended lean 50F Rich of Peak TIT and 'for best power 125F Rich of Peak TIT'
Anything wrong with my POH?
Then it says 'Recommended lean 50F Rich of Peak TIT and 'for best power 125F Rich of Peak TIT'
Anything wrong with my POH?
I wonder how many of you have met the guys who have written some doozy POH statements, who have bravely stood up and said "I wrote that and now I am regretting doing so". That is a humbling experience.
Keeping ones head in the sand is a safe and comfortable place to be. Except your ass is rather exposed.
Now let me post this graph for the XXth time and please tell me where best economy is with reference to peak TIT. Is it really 50ROP TIT? Now tell not me, but your prune pears, that your POH is correct. It either is or it is not.
Better still, pick up the phone and lets chat about it, I give you a money back guarantee to help you learn. Plenty posting here who know what I am offering, some I am not even sure who they are. Up to you, if you are prepared to put your money where your mouth is. I am and we do.
Cheers
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I may have been misreading your previous post, it seemed to be of a mischievous nature. If I misunderstood, then my sincere apologies.
Bolt head, a conforming engine is one that has correctly gapped plugs, resistance below 5Kohms, magneto's in a good state of function and timed accurately to the correct numbers, plus fuel/air ratio's that are near to equal on all cylinders. As the design engineers would want them to be.
Bolt head, a conforming engine is one that has correctly gapped plugs, resistance below 5Kohms, magneto's in a good state of function and timed accurately to the correct numbers, plus fuel/air ratio's that are near to equal on all cylinders. As the design engineers would want them to be.
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Hey Jabba,
"some I am not even sure who they are"
I think I've identified one and by now the hives must be starting to kick in....
On another note though I wonder if there's a market for applying some of these principles in a linear format to the operation of wind turbines? I read somewhere that the ban on them has been lifted.... Still, interesting stuff all this science of proper engine management and no doubt most contributory to the saving of lives.
Sticky
"some I am not even sure who they are"
I think I've identified one and by now the hives must be starting to kick in....
On another note though I wonder if there's a market for applying some of these principles in a linear format to the operation of wind turbines? I read somewhere that the ban on them has been lifted.... Still, interesting stuff all this science of proper engine management and no doubt most contributory to the saving of lives.
Sticky
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Decoder, the thread that vanished was a mystery, as was the alleged student. I even checked with John Deakin. He could not recall this guy and his alleged claim. That was back in November.
As for this thread you are completely wrong……
I had no idea about it until I saw it.
Given the amount of free advice and education over the years that George John and Walter have given in many formats, why does it seem bad to let someone know there are 3 places left when it might be helpful to them.
Some of you guys are a bit too over the top.
As for this thread you are completely wrong……
I had no idea about it until I saw it.Given the amount of free advice and education over the years that George John and Walter have given in many formats, why does it seem bad to let someone know there are 3 places left when it might be helpful to them.
Some of you guys are a bit too over the top.
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eng managment
very few fresh CPL holders know the intricacy's of how piston engines even work, most know just enough to pass the exam but that's the extent of it..
I guarantee most wouldn't be able to change the oil- let alone lean correctly...
probably because a lot of instructors don't know either/ or care...
I guarantee most wouldn't be able to change the oil- let alone lean correctly...
probably because a lot of instructors don't know either/ or care...
Folks,
To be fair, I know of a few newer generation and older generation pilots who have a very balanced approach, they know sod all about kero. burners, as well as their lamentable knowledge of piston engines, where they all got their start.
Tootle pip!!
To be fair, I know of a few newer generation and older generation pilots who have a very balanced approach, they know sod all about kero. burners, as well as their lamentable knowledge of piston engines, where they all got their start.
Tootle pip!!
The science shows that running an engine at around 50 F degrees rich of peak results in the highest peak pressures and temperatures for the cylinders.
The science shows that the two biggest factors contributing to cylinder fatigue are pressure and temperature.
The science therefore shows that manufacturers who recommend that cruise EGT be set around 50 F degrees rich of peak were either ignorant or, as is more likely, trying to wring as much power as they could out of the engine in marketing competitions that used to be won on the basis of a couple of knots cruise TAS in a sidebar summary in the aviation magazine reviews of the latest model Cessna/Piper/Beechcraft etc.
The science therefore also shows that a person who considers POHs to contain immutable facts and the safest engine management procedures is the person with the religion problem.
(And science also shows why the deceleration felt through the seat of the pants is a reliable, repeatable and safe way of setting cruise mixture lean of peak on a confirming engine fitted with a CSU.)
The science shows that the two biggest factors contributing to cylinder fatigue are pressure and temperature.
The science therefore shows that manufacturers who recommend that cruise EGT be set around 50 F degrees rich of peak were either ignorant or, as is more likely, trying to wring as much power as they could out of the engine in marketing competitions that used to be won on the basis of a couple of knots cruise TAS in a sidebar summary in the aviation magazine reviews of the latest model Cessna/Piper/Beechcraft etc.
The science therefore also shows that a person who considers POHs to contain immutable facts and the safest engine management procedures is the person with the religion problem.
(And science also shows why the deceleration felt through the seat of the pants is a reliable, repeatable and safe way of setting cruise mixture lean of peak on a confirming engine fitted with a CSU.)
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Can I get a hallelujah, can I get an Amen.
Come one come all to the altar of the APS God.
Come one come all to the altar of the APS God.
its actually hard science.. nothing religious about it.
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probably because a lot of instructors don't know either/ or care...
Compare his step by step answer against the manufacturer's Pilot Operating Handbook. In the Cessna POH it is termed Balked Landing
Similar exercise on the meaning and practical use of Minimum Static RPM. Where is this figure normally located for reference?
Chances are it will shatter your confidence in the instructors knowledge...
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Sheppey, are you speaking from personal experience? Seriously, those things you mention are BAK/GFPT stuff (or whatever they call it now). Or at least they were back when I did my initial training.
What go-round procedure have you been told or heard is being taught that is so different to the POH..?
If what you say is true, then standards must have slipped somewhat. I'd have been disappointed if one of my students couldn't answer those questions let alone an instructor!
What go-round procedure have you been told or heard is being taught that is so different to the POH..?
If what you say is true, then standards must have slipped somewhat. I'd have been disappointed if one of my students couldn't answer those questions let alone an instructor!
re. aircraft manufacturer's engine operating *recommendations* (not limits): Nothing in the POH says that the engine is guaranteed to make TBO if the recomendations are followed. Similarly, no certification regulation specifies that TBO must be guaranteed. Those recommendations are purely to make the POH performance numbers.
In a similar vein, think of the old turbo F1 qualifying engines: 1200HP from a forced induction 1.5L engine - and it was toast after one round of qualifying - but, jeez, the performance was fabulous. Great for advertising capability. Meanwhile, the same engine producing only 800HP would (usually) last an entire race but performance was rather lower. Much like POH engine operation to achieve POH performance figures, vs LOP ops to maximise engine life.
In a similar vein, think of the old turbo F1 qualifying engines: 1200HP from a forced induction 1.5L engine - and it was toast after one round of qualifying - but, jeez, the performance was fabulous. Great for advertising capability. Meanwhile, the same engine producing only 800HP would (usually) last an entire race but performance was rather lower. Much like POH engine operation to achieve POH performance figures, vs LOP ops to maximise engine life.
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Commercial Pilots who don't know about piston engines.
Commercial Pilots...
While not knocking APS at all because the people who run it are good and decent knowledgable people, I can't help but wonder that all the APS learning is predicated on a "Conforming Engine".
Where can a Commercial pilot, operating possibly many different engines concurrently, find a data plate (or whatever) that says the engine is a "Conforming Engine"?
Seems to me that private owners who know the ins and outs of their own engine would benefit a lot from an APS education but commercial pilots in and out of different machines on a daily basis would be hanging themselves out to dry by not heeding the OEM procedures, without knowing they were operating "Conforming Engines".
While not knocking APS at all because the people who run it are good and decent knowledgable people, I can't help but wonder that all the APS learning is predicated on a "Conforming Engine".
Where can a Commercial pilot, operating possibly many different engines concurrently, find a data plate (or whatever) that says the engine is a "Conforming Engine"?
Seems to me that private owners who know the ins and outs of their own engine would benefit a lot from an APS education but commercial pilots in and out of different machines on a daily basis would be hanging themselves out to dry by not heeding the OEM procedures, without knowing they were operating "Conforming Engines".
It would be a good start if they had an understanding of what those curves jabba has posted many times actually mean, and the profound implications for piston engine management. A pilot with that understanding would not have operated the engines on the Whyalla Airlines aircraft in the climb in the way they were.
What LB says, plus you can get an idea if an engine conforms by leaning in the cruise at say 65% or less. If it runs rough around peak EGT it is unlikely it conforms. If you can lean it past peak EGT and beyond until it looses power and there is no rough running, it likely is a conforming engine.
I reccomend the course, either online or with Jabba. For most pilots, there is heaps to learn.
I reccomend the course, either online or with Jabba. For most pilots, there is heaps to learn.
