Plane down off Pt Lonsdale
FB.
We will all look forward to reading the outcome of the investigation. The fact that we don't know the causes of THIS accident, shouldn't preclude us from discussing issues associated with the weather at the time. It may have nothing to do with the accident, but talking about weather, decision making etc, can do nothing but good- if it makes people THINK.
Again, they may be any number of causes, but aviation is about learning for the rest of your life. If one refuses to consider others experience, ideas, suggestions (dismiss them if you will, but think first), then it is highly likely you have given up learning and are an accident waiting to happen.
QDMetc.
Rant all you like about airline Pilots stalling their aircraft, there is nothing wrong with that and in fact it might wake a few pilots up and save lives.
Let's take emotion out of this. The facts will come to light. Until then, we can discuss senarios and try to improve each other's knowledge.
The weather might not have had anything to do with this prang, but a few hypotheticals around operating in difficult conditions can and a few tools to our toolbox of experience.
We will all look forward to reading the outcome of the investigation. The fact that we don't know the causes of THIS accident, shouldn't preclude us from discussing issues associated with the weather at the time. It may have nothing to do with the accident, but talking about weather, decision making etc, can do nothing but good- if it makes people THINK.
Again, they may be any number of causes, but aviation is about learning for the rest of your life. If one refuses to consider others experience, ideas, suggestions (dismiss them if you will, but think first), then it is highly likely you have given up learning and are an accident waiting to happen.
QDMetc.
Rant all you like about airline Pilots stalling their aircraft, there is nothing wrong with that and in fact it might wake a few pilots up and save lives.
Let's take emotion out of this. The facts will come to light. Until then, we can discuss senarios and try to improve each other's knowledge.
The weather might not have had anything to do with this prang, but a few hypotheticals around operating in difficult conditions can and a few tools to our toolbox of experience.
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Sunfish, I don't know the answer to your question but it would appear unlikely given their route and reported low altitude.
Porter, out of interest what route and altitude did you take down to King that day..?
Porter, out of interest what route and altitude did you take down to King that day..?
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VFR v's IFR
I have read all the posts on this sad event. Some, frankly, are blatant attempts to say "I told you so". The question of whether or not any of the pilot's aboard held an Instrument Rating has been posed. I am now retired and, sadly, grounded due medical reasons. During my working life as a Flight Engineer in both the RAAF and in civil aviation I have crewed with relatively inexperienced pilots and extremely experienced ones. What was invariably evident was that most of those pilots, regardless of experience, were "rusty" when returning from lengthy leave periods. This was particularly evident in refresher flights in the simulator before resuming line flying. My point is that it is one thing to hold an Instrument Rating, it is entirely another to remain current. If a 20000+ hour pilot can need a few instrument approaches in a simulator to fine tune his/her skills what chance will a PPL have to retain his/her IR skills and currency?
As some have written, discussion is good. Making assumptions is not. Hopefully, we will all learn from this tragic event.
PS: CENTAURUS, I too wondered about the flap setting shown in the picture. Maybe a formation approach to land somewhere near the coast??
As some have written, discussion is good. Making assumptions is not. Hopefully, we will all learn from this tragic event.
PS: CENTAURUS, I too wondered about the flap setting shown in the picture. Maybe a formation approach to land somewhere near the coast??
Last edited by Old Fella; 31st Jan 2016 at 09:51. Reason: delete word
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Interesting aircraft the Alpha. Flies straight and level in formation with full flap down..
What's your point, Centaurus?
and what relevance does the full flap formation have to do with the tragic events that unfolded? trying to imply something?
Last edited by Ultralights; 31st Jan 2016 at 11:08.
The year was 1991 and I was doing my RPPL at MB when we lost one of our privately owned aircraft in similar conditions and not all that far away from the Pathfinder's final descent...
It was Point Addis in fact, near Anglesea, and eerily enough, Tony Jacobs and family had departed King Island (against RPT AUS-AIR/KIA pilots' advice) and hit the horrendous rain squall near the coast at low level.
They were in their Beech Musketeer VH-UAS and I'll never forget the late great Robbie Spry walking over to the school to tell the CFI that he and JM were getting VH-FDF the SAR PA31 geared up for a search down there for one of our aircraft.
Sadly, as HA says, despite the forums, briefings, pub talk etc, folks will still periodically employ 'press-on-itis' instead of cashing out with the timely 180 or at least ensure an out at all times, especially when possibly at low-level and 'scud-running'.
I later attended the funeral for Tony and his family at Springvale (there opposite Sandown) and my CFI at the time asked that I lock the whole unpleasant memory away for future reminders of the need for careful weather analysis/enroute decision-making. It was a teary affair as Tony had strongly encouraged me to chase my aviation dreams as a keen, bushy-tailed youngster at the flying school. And they are still in my thoughts to this day...
RIP to the latest poor victims. Saw D&D at RVAC on the Dawn Patrol morning recently... Always friendly chaps.
Safe travels all,
BR
It was Point Addis in fact, near Anglesea, and eerily enough, Tony Jacobs and family had departed King Island (against RPT AUS-AIR/KIA pilots' advice) and hit the horrendous rain squall near the coast at low level.
They were in their Beech Musketeer VH-UAS and I'll never forget the late great Robbie Spry walking over to the school to tell the CFI that he and JM were getting VH-FDF the SAR PA31 geared up for a search down there for one of our aircraft.
Sadly, as HA says, despite the forums, briefings, pub talk etc, folks will still periodically employ 'press-on-itis' instead of cashing out with the timely 180 or at least ensure an out at all times, especially when possibly at low-level and 'scud-running'.
I later attended the funeral for Tony and his family at Springvale (there opposite Sandown) and my CFI at the time asked that I lock the whole unpleasant memory away for future reminders of the need for careful weather analysis/enroute decision-making. It was a teary affair as Tony had strongly encouraged me to chase my aviation dreams as a keen, bushy-tailed youngster at the flying school. And they are still in my thoughts to this day...
RIP to the latest poor victims. Saw D&D at RVAC on the Dawn Patrol morning recently... Always friendly chaps.
Safe travels all,
BR
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yes, whats the point? i did my formation work with a Alpha 160, cruise 120Kts, and a Savannah VG, cruise 87 Kts, to keep formation with a Savannah required full flap.
and what relevance does the full flap formation have to do with the tragic events that unfolded? trying to imply something?
and what relevance does the full flap formation have to do with the tragic events that unfolded? trying to imply something?
Normally in formation flying one uses the power to adjust the required speed; not putting the flaps up and down. Have you watched the RAAF Roulettes aerobatic team doing their formation aerobatics? Have yet to see them drop landing flaps to keep in formation.
Have you watched the RAAF Roulettes aerobatic team doing their formation aerobatics? Have yet to see them drop landing flaps to keep in formation.
Ever try formating on something like a Tiger Moth that cruises at 50 knots with something a lot new and faster? I'm assuming not.
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I do not know the exact circumstances, for all I know there could have been a structural failure - I will not be jumping to conclusions - Just wait for the investigation to be completed by ATSB.
However with that being said - In the mines we had this poem that may, or may not have been relevant to this situation.. if you see someone doing something that isn't right, pull them aside.. hurting someones ego or pride is better than letting them continue in to a dangerous situation... maybe it could be just a few minutes of a lapse in judgement... that is all it takes.
"I Chose to Look The Other Way"
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.
It wasn’t that I didn’t care,
I had the time, and I was there.
But I didn’t want to seem a fool,
Or argue over a safety rule.
I knew he’d done the job before,
If I spoke up, he might get sore.
The chances didn’t seem that bad,
I’d done the same, He knew I had.
So I shook my head and walked on by,
He knew the risks as well as I.
He took the chance, I closed an eye,
And with that act, I let him die.
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.
Now every time I see his wife,
I’ll know, I should have saved his life.
That guilt is something I must bear,
But it isn’t something you need share.
If you see a risk that others take,
That puts their health or life at stake.
The question asked, or thing you say,
Could help them live another day.
If you see a risk and walk away,
Then hope you never have to say,
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose, to look the other way.
However with that being said - In the mines we had this poem that may, or may not have been relevant to this situation.. if you see someone doing something that isn't right, pull them aside.. hurting someones ego or pride is better than letting them continue in to a dangerous situation... maybe it could be just a few minutes of a lapse in judgement... that is all it takes.
"I Chose to Look The Other Way"
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.
It wasn’t that I didn’t care,
I had the time, and I was there.
But I didn’t want to seem a fool,
Or argue over a safety rule.
I knew he’d done the job before,
If I spoke up, he might get sore.
The chances didn’t seem that bad,
I’d done the same, He knew I had.
So I shook my head and walked on by,
He knew the risks as well as I.
He took the chance, I closed an eye,
And with that act, I let him die.
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.
Now every time I see his wife,
I’ll know, I should have saved his life.
That guilt is something I must bear,
But it isn’t something you need share.
If you see a risk that others take,
That puts their health or life at stake.
The question asked, or thing you say,
Could help them live another day.
If you see a risk and walk away,
Then hope you never have to say,
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose, to look the other way.
Last edited by Sbaker; 31st Jan 2016 at 22:43.
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Wow - certainly some phenomenal egos at work on this thread! ATSB hasn't completed its findings, wreckage plus one body still missing and these poor souls have copped quite a beating.
Was the weather a contributing factor? - most likely, sure would not have helped.
Was it the primary cause of this accident? - we just don't know.
Let's all hope the cause of this accident is found. We may all be able to learn something from whatever the contributing factors were that caused this crash. My thoughts and condolences go out to the families and friends of those lost in this accident.
Was the weather a contributing factor? - most likely, sure would not have helped.
Was it the primary cause of this accident? - we just don't know.
Let's all hope the cause of this accident is found. We may all be able to learn something from whatever the contributing factors were that caused this crash. My thoughts and condolences go out to the families and friends of those lost in this accident.
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@ A37575 - Not trying to be a smart arse, but the Alpha 160 isn't in the LSA category as it's fully aerobatic.
Agreed it is a little different to do formation in aeroplanes of vastly different performance. I have been in a Cherokee taking pic's of a CAC Mustang, which was a bit different to say the least! The Cherokee was throttle to the firewall and the Mustang had the gear unsafe warning horn blarring - apparently activates at low speed if gear not down. It requires a good briefing and understanding by pilots concerned.
Sure, Roulettes don't use flaps, but they most definitely use the speed brake on the PC-9's. Speed isn't just regulated by the throttle in these machines.
Agreed it is a little different to do formation in aeroplanes of vastly different performance. I have been in a Cherokee taking pic's of a CAC Mustang, which was a bit different to say the least! The Cherokee was throttle to the firewall and the Mustang had the gear unsafe warning horn blarring - apparently activates at low speed if gear not down. It requires a good briefing and understanding by pilots concerned.
Sure, Roulettes don't use flaps, but they most definitely use the speed brake on the PC-9's. Speed isn't just regulated by the throttle in these machines.
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Document found
According to press reports.....
"Most of the plane's debris has already washed ashore since the crash, including a document which may hold clues to why the plane went down."
Read more: More wreckage found after fatal Barwon Heads plane crash
If this document is the maintenance release, what clues would the accident investigators expect to see? Any ideas?
"Most of the plane's debris has already washed ashore since the crash, including a document which may hold clues to why the plane went down."
Read more: More wreckage found after fatal Barwon Heads plane crash
If this document is the maintenance release, what clues would the accident investigators expect to see? Any ideas?
Media
Suggest you don't look to the media for the answers. Firstly they couldn't decide whether 4 seater or 6 seater. Then the release the names with statements like 'names haven't been released yet, but we understand the people on board to be'. And now the article in The Age:
Why did VH-PXD hit the water? Mystery surrounds plane crash which killed four
Why did VH-PXD hit the water? Mystery surrounds plane crash which killed four
http://m.theage.com.au/victoria/why-did-vhpxd-hit-the-water-mystery-surrounds-plane-crash-which-killed-four-20160205-gmmr9q.html
