Plane down off Pt Lonsdale
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Based on the route they were taking, I think it's fair to say they were VFR. MB around to Cape Otway then down to King Island. If you were IFR you'd take a more direct route. VFR flights to King Island need a lot better conditions than yesterday's. I wonder, is having 3 pilots on board an advantage or not..? Human factors gurus may be able to comment. Still very hard to understand why you'd attempt the flight given the conditions.
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Sad state of affairs. Not overly familiar with YMMB, but at almost the same time, a PA30 was going YMMB to King Island, and asked for a SVFR clearance, but flightaware showed that he didn't make it very far past the coast, turning around and taking quite a circuitous route to get back to YMMB, landing at 1232 local. So there were people trying and turning back. My condolences.
It is my understanding that this aircraft was one of a group heading to the island which would explain the other noted attempts and may possibly contribute to the human factors element.
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Ah, made a boob!! That limit is for charter ops which was my experience to/from YMKI eons ago, no limit for private ops - AIP ENR 1.1-100. Prudence, however, would nonetheless suggest the shortest route over water the better choice irrespective of the category.
As for wearing life jackets, seen many examples where, despite the regs requiring them, they stayed in place in their packets in the seat pockets. Surviving a ditching in Bass Strait is the first challenge, not dying from exposure is the next awaiting rescue. Many years ago there were survivors from a ditching in Bass Strait who perished awaiting rescue. Life jackets weren't much use to them.
As for wearing life jackets, seen many examples where, despite the regs requiring them, they stayed in place in their packets in the seat pockets. Surviving a ditching in Bass Strait is the first challenge, not dying from exposure is the next awaiting rescue. Many years ago there were survivors from a ditching in Bass Strait who perished awaiting rescue. Life jackets weren't much use to them.
Without drawing conclusions as to the cause of this accident, I feel that Human Factors is one issue that is not really considered by Private Pilots, simply due to the fact that it's not a requirement to touch on during training for a PPL.
CASA spend a bucket load of money sending advisors around the country trying to educate pilots on subjects such as VFR flight into IMC, and these kind of accidents still happen very regularly. Maybe it's time that CASA look at a different approach, as the seminars are obviously having very little effect.
Single engine aircraft can now fly directly over Bass Strait, the rules changed about 20 years ago. It was once mandatory to track via the shortest distances in-between the islands on both sides of Bass Strait, however I believe that's now only advisory. Having said this I stand to be corrected, as it's been a long time since I've flown a single over Bass Strait.
Yesterday was a bad day for aviation, hopefully we can all learn from this terrible event. Condolences to all effected.
CASA spend a bucket load of money sending advisors around the country trying to educate pilots on subjects such as VFR flight into IMC, and these kind of accidents still happen very regularly. Maybe it's time that CASA look at a different approach, as the seminars are obviously having very little effect.
Single engine aircraft can now fly directly over Bass Strait, the rules changed about 20 years ago. It was once mandatory to track via the shortest distances in-between the islands on both sides of Bass Strait, however I believe that's now only advisory. Having said this I stand to be corrected, as it's been a long time since I've flown a single over Bass Strait.
Yesterday was a bad day for aviation, hopefully we can all learn from this terrible event. Condolences to all effected.
Last edited by Duck Pilot; 30th Jan 2016 at 21:20.
The most dangerous thing on an aircraft.... is a schedule.
Here is picture of Don flying in the club's Alpha. It's on the wall when you walk in and appeared in the Age today.
Here is picture of Don flying in the club's Alpha. It's on the wall when you walk in and appeared in the Age today.
Last edited by Squawk7700; 30th Jan 2016 at 09:13.
Every rumour I was told is true.
This is pretty much the biggest waste of life I've seen in 10 years in the game because of how easy this one was to avoid.
WTF they thought they were doing is beyond me. I know of 15 thousand hour pilots who were sitting on the ground because it was unsuitable for VFR and only a handful of IFR were getting out and doing what they needed.
Here's a few messages out for the PPL /private flying community out there.
1. You are a PPL. Even if you've been flying for 20 years it doesn't mean **** unless you are current and fly weekly at least in a range of conditions.
2. You are not beyond the laws and consequences of flaunting them or pushing them.
3. Statistics show you are the most unsafe people in the sky. That should be a trigger for you to take great care.
4. Ask , ask and then ask again. Even the most junior instructor who has worked for a year or two has more currency and understanding of the local area and wx than you. You don't know ****. See point 3 for proof. Go look at the stats. See how many instructors die vs you guys. They work under safety frameworks you have no idea of.
5. If you wanna play with the big boys in the soup then take it seriously and get an IFR rating, keep it current and tread with absolute care. If it runs out, YOU ARE NOT suitable for IMC.
6. People will take more risks in groups than alone. I wonder if any single pilot on board would have gone alone, and gone if others hadn't tried. The worst of it had appeared to pass , but a simple call would have shown them this was a false dawn ... See next point.
7. RING THE MET PEOPLE . There is a number at the end of the ARFOR. They are Yoda like and have far more current modelling than all but the latest TAFS.
8. If you see people doing dumb sh1t report them or if they are close pull them aside quietly and have a word. They may not like it but stiff.
Take care.
This is pretty much the biggest waste of life I've seen in 10 years in the game because of how easy this one was to avoid.
WTF they thought they were doing is beyond me. I know of 15 thousand hour pilots who were sitting on the ground because it was unsuitable for VFR and only a handful of IFR were getting out and doing what they needed.
Here's a few messages out for the PPL /private flying community out there.
1. You are a PPL. Even if you've been flying for 20 years it doesn't mean **** unless you are current and fly weekly at least in a range of conditions.
2. You are not beyond the laws and consequences of flaunting them or pushing them.
3. Statistics show you are the most unsafe people in the sky. That should be a trigger for you to take great care.
4. Ask , ask and then ask again. Even the most junior instructor who has worked for a year or two has more currency and understanding of the local area and wx than you. You don't know ****. See point 3 for proof. Go look at the stats. See how many instructors die vs you guys. They work under safety frameworks you have no idea of.
5. If you wanna play with the big boys in the soup then take it seriously and get an IFR rating, keep it current and tread with absolute care. If it runs out, YOU ARE NOT suitable for IMC.
6. People will take more risks in groups than alone. I wonder if any single pilot on board would have gone alone, and gone if others hadn't tried. The worst of it had appeared to pass , but a simple call would have shown them this was a false dawn ... See next point.
7. RING THE MET PEOPLE . There is a number at the end of the ARFOR. They are Yoda like and have far more current modelling than all but the latest TAFS.
8. If you see people doing dumb sh1t report them or if they are close pull them aside quietly and have a word. They may not like it but stiff.
Take care.
Are you an instructor or just a CPL Homesick-Angel? 10 years hey...? I guess that makes you qualified to offer such sound advice. I know people that have been flying for 40+ years and they still say that they are learning every time they take to the sky. Good on you for working it all out in only 10 years.
So you weren't there on the day and you offer this advice based on rumours of people that were on the ground?
Was it VFR at YMMB, Special VFR or IFR only? You are suggesting that it was unsuitable for VFR... however if so, why / how did they get out of Moorabbin in the first place? SVFR is available but only if it's still VFR conditions. Should the tower have stopped them? How does a VFR aircraft take off from a controlled aerodrome in conditions that are unsuitable for VFR (which is what you are saying)?
I read your post like you were there, or you saw the aircraft crash, you know the experience and currency of the pilots, you are a trained aircraft crash investigator, you are an accomplished instructor and IFR pilot and you know exactly what happened... which one is it?
You mean the guys that rarely leave the training area and if they do it's only in CAVOK on a nav with student? No wonder they are "safer."
Of course, IFR rated pilots never crash do they???
So you weren't there on the day and you offer this advice based on rumours of people that were on the ground?
Was it VFR at YMMB, Special VFR or IFR only? You are suggesting that it was unsuitable for VFR... however if so, why / how did they get out of Moorabbin in the first place? SVFR is available but only if it's still VFR conditions. Should the tower have stopped them? How does a VFR aircraft take off from a controlled aerodrome in conditions that are unsuitable for VFR (which is what you are saying)?
I read your post like you were there, or you saw the aircraft crash, you know the experience and currency of the pilots, you are a trained aircraft crash investigator, you are an accomplished instructor and IFR pilot and you know exactly what happened... which one is it?
Even the most junior instructor who has worked for a year or two has more currency and understanding of the local area and wx than you. You don't know ****.
Of course, IFR rated pilots never crash do they???
Every rumour I was told is true.
This is pretty much the biggest waste of life I've seen in 10 years in the game because of how easy this one was to avoid.
WTF they thought they were doing is beyond me. I know of 15 thousand hour pilots who were sitting on the ground because it was unsuitable for VFR and only a handful of IFR were getting out and doing what they needed.
Here's a few messages out for the PPL /private flying community out there.
1. You are a PPL. Even if you've been flying for 20 years it doesn't mean **** unless you are current and fly weekly at least in a range of conditions.
2. You are not beyond the laws and consequences of flaunting them or pushing them.
3. Statistics show you are the most unsafe people in the sky. That should be a trigger for you to take great care.
4. Ask , ask and then ask again. Even the most junior instructor who has worked for a year or two has more currency and understanding of the local area and wx than you. You don't know ****. See point 3 for proof. Go look at the stats. See how many instructors die vs you guys. They work under safety frameworks you have no idea of.
5. If you wanna play with the big boys in the soup then take it seriously and get an IFR rating, keep it current and tread with absolute care. If it runs out, YOU ARE NOT suitable for IMC.
6. People will take more risks in groups than alone. I wonder if any single pilot on board would have gone alone, and gone if others hadn't tried. The worst of it had appeared to pass , but a simple call would have shown them this was a false dawn ... See next point.
7. RING THE MET PEOPLE . There is a number at the end of the ARFOR. They are Yoda like and have far more current modelling than all but the latest TAFS.
8. If you see people doing dumb sh1t report them or if they are close pull them aside quietly and have a word. They may not like it but stiff.
Take care.
This is pretty much the biggest waste of life I've seen in 10 years in the game because of how easy this one was to avoid.
WTF they thought they were doing is beyond me. I know of 15 thousand hour pilots who were sitting on the ground because it was unsuitable for VFR and only a handful of IFR were getting out and doing what they needed.
Here's a few messages out for the PPL /private flying community out there.
1. You are a PPL. Even if you've been flying for 20 years it doesn't mean **** unless you are current and fly weekly at least in a range of conditions.
2. You are not beyond the laws and consequences of flaunting them or pushing them.
3. Statistics show you are the most unsafe people in the sky. That should be a trigger for you to take great care.
4. Ask , ask and then ask again. Even the most junior instructor who has worked for a year or two has more currency and understanding of the local area and wx than you. You don't know ****. See point 3 for proof. Go look at the stats. See how many instructors die vs you guys. They work under safety frameworks you have no idea of.
5. If you wanna play with the big boys in the soup then take it seriously and get an IFR rating, keep it current and tread with absolute care. If it runs out, YOU ARE NOT suitable for IMC.
6. People will take more risks in groups than alone. I wonder if any single pilot on board would have gone alone, and gone if others hadn't tried. The worst of it had appeared to pass , but a simple call would have shown them this was a false dawn ... See next point.
7. RING THE MET PEOPLE . There is a number at the end of the ARFOR. They are Yoda like and have far more current modelling than all but the latest TAFS.
8. If you see people doing dumb sh1t report them or if they are close pull them aside quietly and have a word. They may not like it but stiff.
Take care.
Last edited by Squawk7700; 30th Jan 2016 at 10:12.
HA, Good advice that applies to all not just PPL's. Sad day but I hope some learn from it.
Squawk put your ego away. It is not appreciated.
Squawk put your ego away. It is not appreciated.
Last edited by zanthrus; 30th Jan 2016 at 10:09. Reason: Squawk7700
I know you knew the occupants , and for your loss I'm sorry.
In your gut did they make a good call to fly - legal or not? Would you have gone to King VFR that day? Have you heard of other accidents similar? Maybe I'm the one happy to take some criticism to say what I know as common sense.
I did labor over whether to post something of this nature now or later, but if one person makes a good decision in the future (which history tells us they won't) then I will have achieved my own personal aim on this topic.
My experience is relatively low compared to many others here (mix of charter up north and instruction down South. ) I don't think it's relevant in this situation.
I've seen enough..
In your gut did they make a good call to fly - legal or not? Would you have gone to King VFR that day? Have you heard of other accidents similar? Maybe I'm the one happy to take some criticism to say what I know as common sense.
I did labor over whether to post something of this nature now or later, but if one person makes a good decision in the future (which history tells us they won't) then I will have achieved my own personal aim on this topic.
My experience is relatively low compared to many others here (mix of charter up north and instruction down South. ) I don't think it's relevant in this situation.
I've seen enough..
Last edited by Homesick-Angel; 30th Jan 2016 at 12:52.
Squawk put your ego away. It is not appreciated.
/ˈiːɡəʊ,ˈɛ-/
noun
noun: ego; plural noun: egos
[Bold]a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.[/Bold]
"he needed a boost to his ego"
I thought Homesick_Angel was the one showing their EGO by preaching their own rules of the sky based on some airfield rumours? I merely suggested that 10 years of experience is quite junior in this context and some evidence would be beneficial for such bold statements.
You can say whatever you want HA, I don't mind and you won't offend, if someone died doing something silly, then it is what it is, I can't change that, however you have some pretty bold statements in your post there and a seasoned poster like say LeadSled would back them up with references containing evidence and statistics. Otherwise, without that, it just looks like a rant from some second-hand rumours.
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Sqwark, I departed Moorabbin IFR about 1240pm that day, the zone was IFR (one in - one out). When I was taxiing I heard a VFR taxy & the tower advising SVFR would be required, I didn't hear that full conversation as I was busy doing stuff. I was in IMC pretty much all the way so can't tell you what the base was over the strait.
I got absolutely drenched on the tarmac at King, low cloud, lots of rain & worsening vis. I heard one aircraft land, I didn't hear anything IFR on the way down so wondered how in blazes he got in? Like I said, dunno what the base was but I was surprised. There were two aircraft already there, one chap came over and asked if I'd heard this fellow on the radio. In retrospect I can't imagine how these 2 plane loads of people felt when they eventually heard.
I don't know what made whoever made this (extremely poor) decision to depart Moorabbin. The forecasts weren't good, they were crap in most parts of tassie. I'd suggest to you that Homesick is extremely angry that, yet again, innocent people who trust people at the controls implicitly to make good decisions paid the ultimate price.
I got absolutely drenched on the tarmac at King, low cloud, lots of rain & worsening vis. I heard one aircraft land, I didn't hear anything IFR on the way down so wondered how in blazes he got in? Like I said, dunno what the base was but I was surprised. There were two aircraft already there, one chap came over and asked if I'd heard this fellow on the radio. In retrospect I can't imagine how these 2 plane loads of people felt when they eventually heard.
I don't know what made whoever made this (extremely poor) decision to depart Moorabbin. The forecasts weren't good, they were crap in most parts of tassie. I'd suggest to you that Homesick is extremely angry that, yet again, innocent people who trust people at the controls implicitly to make good decisions paid the ultimate price.
Last edited by The name is Porter; 30th Jan 2016 at 11:37.
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From my vantage point on the day, YMMB would of been ok to depart from. There wasn't much rain and the cloud was approx 2000'. I could see a line of low black cloud stretching along the bottom of the bay. This would've been apparent once airborne. It didn't look nice. Friends down that way said the weather was "****" all day. Big difference in weather 20nm apart.
Certainly an interesting contrast in weather conditions from two pilots onsite on the day.
Like I said if they were allowing SVFR....
Like I said if they were allowing SVFR....
