Tiger at Pimpama
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UnaMas,
I can understand what you are saying but wonder if you are not being a touch tough, ....
Many of us have had the "young gun" blood in our veins at some stage... it takes some time to transition from the "Bold Pilot" to the "Old Pilot."
And really, in this case, it may not even be part of the equation!
As has been suggested , the Moth is not so forgiving, I know of two highly experienced RAAF pilots that crashed one...(sadly one did not survive), so lets just see this this as how Aviation can bite savagely, rather than labelling it as youthful exuberance.
Anyway, my sincerest commiserations to the "Adventurer" and his family.
I wish for a speedy recovery for the PIC, and hope he can continues in the career that is undoubtably his passion.
"THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE ........go many of us, etc, etc"
I can understand what you are saying but wonder if you are not being a touch tough, ....
Many of us have had the "young gun" blood in our veins at some stage... it takes some time to transition from the "Bold Pilot" to the "Old Pilot."
And really, in this case, it may not even be part of the equation!
As has been suggested , the Moth is not so forgiving, I know of two highly experienced RAAF pilots that crashed one...(sadly one did not survive), so lets just see this this as how Aviation can bite savagely, rather than labelling it as youthful exuberance.
Anyway, my sincerest commiserations to the "Adventurer" and his family.
I wish for a speedy recovery for the PIC, and hope he can continues in the career that is undoubtably his passion.
"THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE ........go many of us, etc, etc"
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Ryan is an honest young bloke, an extremely good public speaker & passionate aviator. I hope he's able to tell us one day what happened so that we can all learn a bit more. He'll have a lot to deal with (quite apart from his physical injuries), wouldn't wish that on anybody. Best to you mate, hope you come out of this for the better.
Any idea if that particular Tiger Moth had its leading edge auto slots either fixed closed or previously removed altogether? It is a cost saving measure used by some civilian operators. All RAAF Tiger Moths had operating auto slots which gave excellent pre-stall warning by the noise of them opening and shutting with a noticeable `clacking noise`
While there was only a few knots difference in stalling speeds slots locked or unlocked, it was part of pre-take off checks in RAAF Tiger Moths to have the auto slots unlocked. It is understood the Tiger Moth operated by the RAAF Museum and which crashed during practice engine failure shortly after take off had its auto slots either disabled or removed altogether, thus depriving the aircraft of an effective stall warning.
While there was only a few knots difference in stalling speeds slots locked or unlocked, it was part of pre-take off checks in RAAF Tiger Moths to have the auto slots unlocked. It is understood the Tiger Moth operated by the RAAF Museum and which crashed during practice engine failure shortly after take off had its auto slots either disabled or removed altogether, thus depriving the aircraft of an effective stall warning.
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Every aircraft has an effective stall warning. It's in your hand. When it's hauled back to your stomach your pretty close to a stall. Learn where the stall stick position is and you don't need any "clacking" as a reminder.
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Every aircraft has an effective stall warning. It's in your hand. When it's hauled back to your stomach your pretty close to a stall. Learn where the stall stick position is and you don't need any "clacking" as a
Splitting hairs a bit, but I was under the impression that the pieces of kit were called slats, and the the flow of air was directed through the slots formed, thus delaying the onset of turbulent flow over the upper wing surface.
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From CAAP 155-1
3.14 Stick Position And The Stall
3.14.1 An important aspect of both normal and aerobatic flight is the relationship of the stick position to the angle of attack of a wing for a specific flap setting or centre of gravity, in particular at the stall. The fore and aft position of the control column determines the angle of the aircraft's wings to the airflow. For example, the stick positions for cruise, glide and the stall move progressively aft. Once the stick position for the stall has been determined (and remembered), it can be used as a measure of whether an aircraft's wing is stalled or not. If the stick is forward of the 'stalled stick position', the aircraft will always be in unstalled flight, regardless of aircraft attitude or airspeed.
3.14.2 Appreciation of this concept, and the ability to recognise and apply stick position to achieve CLMAX (that is the point just before a wing stalls) can increase awareness and enhance a pilot's confidence and aircraft handling at this critical phase of flight.
3.14.1 An important aspect of both normal and aerobatic flight is the relationship of the stick position to the angle of attack of a wing for a specific flap setting or centre of gravity, in particular at the stall. The fore and aft position of the control column determines the angle of the aircraft's wings to the airflow. For example, the stick positions for cruise, glide and the stall move progressively aft. Once the stick position for the stall has been determined (and remembered), it can be used as a measure of whether an aircraft's wing is stalled or not. If the stick is forward of the 'stalled stick position', the aircraft will always be in unstalled flight, regardless of aircraft attitude or airspeed.
3.14.2 Appreciation of this concept, and the ability to recognise and apply stick position to achieve CLMAX (that is the point just before a wing stalls) can increase awareness and enhance a pilot's confidence and aircraft handling at this critical phase of flight.
Fuji I believe the CAAP is in error. It is true that the "stalled stick position" is dependent on flap setting and particularly C of G. So this gives rise to a multitude of so called "stalled stick positions" which in my opinion are not likely to be remembered - better to rely on the small range of the stall speed (under normal flight conditions) that can be readily determined, apply a prudent safety margin if you are so inclined, and fly the aircraft accordingly.
Last edited by On eyre; 30th Dec 2015 at 08:54.
The SMALL range of stall speed?
But that SMALL range is huge if G is taken into account. Memorising a set speed or range and thinking you are safe if you exceed it is a most dangerous belief and practise.
But that SMALL range is huge if G is taken into account. Memorising a set speed or range and thinking you are safe if you exceed it is a most dangerous belief and practise.
Fujii is very correct. It is all about stick position. There is a lot less change in the stick position compared to the stall speeds you might experience in a loop, MTOW, Empty, steep turn ect...
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small range of stall speed? serious? you can stall at 1 IAS, and you can stall at VNE.. its all dependent on 1 thing, AOA, AOA is controlled by Pitch.. Pitch is controlled by the stick. simples.
as for what happened at Pimpama?
as for what happened at Pimpama?
Last edited by Ultralights; 30th Dec 2015 at 09:00.
Splitting hairs a bit, but I was under the impression that the pieces of kit were called slats, and the the flow of air was directed through the slots formed
In turn, this is amplified with a full description of Automatic Slots. e.g Sub Para (ii) "The operating lever should be near the rear-most position when the slots are locked. With the lever in the forward position the slots should be quite free."
There are other references to `Slots` as against `Slats` For example paragraph 23 under heading of Take Off states;- "The setting of the controls during the Drill of Vital Actions is as follows:-
1. Elevator trim is neutral (central position on quadrant)
2. Tighten throttle friction nut.
3. mixture control right back to fully rich position.
4. Fuel cock fully on, tank contents sufficient for flight.
5. Slots unlocked (lever fully forward)
etc etc
I must admit that `Slats` sounds more logical but I guess in 1944 the terminology was different.
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better to rely on the small range of the stall speed that can be readily determined, apply a prudent safety margin if you are so inclined, and fly the aircraft accordingly.
Ryan would have the utmost of respect for the stall... He owns and flies a Lancair if I am not mistaken....
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Wow prospector. Garbage? Perhaps my standard of aeronautical knowledge does not compare with some of the sky gods but my standard of aerobatic flight increases with every competition and practice sortie. If you don't believe that garbage you have a very good chance of kissing the dirt.
I am not giving an opinion based on a theoretical knowledge. I stall an aircraft every single time I fly it purely because if it is not stalled, it won't spin. Guess where the stick is? Same place, every time. Muscle memeory is a powerful thing. The recovery? Move it forward an inch and unstall the wing.
Narrow stall speed ranges are only applicable in straight and level flight. If you are capable of using the entire flight envolope you can stall an aircraft at VNE. Not recommended but possible.
I am not giving an opinion based on a theoretical knowledge. I stall an aircraft every single time I fly it purely because if it is not stalled, it won't spin. Guess where the stick is? Same place, every time. Muscle memeory is a powerful thing. The recovery? Move it forward an inch and unstall the wing.
Narrow stall speed ranges are only applicable in straight and level flight. If you are capable of using the entire flight envolope you can stall an aircraft at VNE. Not recommended but possible.
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Ahem, the thread is getting a bit drifty but 50 50 and UL I think you may mean Va not Vne, as it is very likely you will break something. Modern certification will restrict to a maximum operating speed Vmo that is in fact well below Vne.
A stall is defined as the point where the nose of the aircraft pitches uncontrollably down and cannot be corrected with normal input, elevator on the up stop. This may well happen at Vne as the wings will no longer be on the aircraft in most cases.
Hardly germane in this instance I suspect.
I have operated tigers is strong gusty winds, the biggest issue is lack of energy which can make things a bit tricky. With little forward speed, and a wind shear in the lee of a tree line, all you stall stick position means JS. There are no cards left to play, especially if engine was not happy. You have already stalled, without trying. Not saying that's the case here, just that it's the sort of thing that can catch someone out if the 60 year old engine fails or even partially fails.
Also not calling stall stick position BS either. It's good practice and information that will add to a prudent pilots pool of knowledge, but it's just a piece of the puzzle, not the whole picture. If you are 80 feet in the air with no GS and the IAS goes away you cAn put the stick anywhere you want, it will do nothing until you have accelerated to a speed sufficient to make the elevators become effective, and you may not have altitude sufficient to be able to convert your potential energy to kinetic. You have ( especially if the engine is stopped) little or no ability to lower the nose to attempt to accelerate. Gravity wins. Again.
HD
A stall is defined as the point where the nose of the aircraft pitches uncontrollably down and cannot be corrected with normal input, elevator on the up stop. This may well happen at Vne as the wings will no longer be on the aircraft in most cases.
Hardly germane in this instance I suspect.
I have operated tigers is strong gusty winds, the biggest issue is lack of energy which can make things a bit tricky. With little forward speed, and a wind shear in the lee of a tree line, all you stall stick position means JS. There are no cards left to play, especially if engine was not happy. You have already stalled, without trying. Not saying that's the case here, just that it's the sort of thing that can catch someone out if the 60 year old engine fails or even partially fails.
Also not calling stall stick position BS either. It's good practice and information that will add to a prudent pilots pool of knowledge, but it's just a piece of the puzzle, not the whole picture. If you are 80 feet in the air with no GS and the IAS goes away you cAn put the stick anywhere you want, it will do nothing until you have accelerated to a speed sufficient to make the elevators become effective, and you may not have altitude sufficient to be able to convert your potential energy to kinetic. You have ( especially if the engine is stopped) little or no ability to lower the nose to attempt to accelerate. Gravity wins. Again.
HD
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Totally agree with the 'stall position, stick position' concept.
In fact I think, if Angle of Attack instead of Pitch, was taught as the 'Primary' effect of the elevator, everyone would have a better understanding of the idea!
Only my humble opinion though.
In fact I think, if Angle of Attack instead of Pitch, was taught as the 'Primary' effect of the elevator, everyone would have a better understanding of the idea!
Only my humble opinion though.
50 50:I stall an aircraft every single time I fly it purely because if it is not stalled, it won't spin. Guess where the stick is? Same place, every time.
An aircraft can stall at any speed (or attitude). No doubt you can recall your Effects of Controls lesson - controls firm and responsive at high speed and sloppy and less responsive at low speed. It takes more elevator travel therefore stick travel to increase the angle of attack at low speed than it does it high speed. Therefore the stick cannot be in the same place for every stall.
Someone posted earlier about the conditions on the day. If I understood that correctly the aircraft was possible operating in quite turbulent air. Turbulent conditions can very rapidly change the relative air flow over the wing and the aircraft (or worse one wing) can be in a stalled condition without any change in stick position.
To categorically say stick position is always a good indicator of whether or not an aircraft is likely to stall (or is stalled) is being far too general in my opinion.