Procedures at Tindal and Alice Springs
Thread Starter
Procedures at Tindal and Alice Springs
Morning all,
I am but a humble day VFR pilot who tends to keep well away from controlled airspace. However, on a trip to Darwin recently had to run the gammut of the ATC.
Without going into a long explanation, I incurred the mild wrath of an airforce ATC
person.
On my return, I was explaining the incident to a retired QANTAS person, whose explanation was that for reasons unknown, both Tindal and YBAS are different in that they regard a right hand circuit as being where the AIRCRAFT is on the RIGHT side of the active runway. I was always taught that a right hand circuit is where the RUNWAY is on the RIGHT side of the airc raft, and the pilot does right turns.
Is anyone from that area able to confirm this??
Thanks,
Mick
I am but a humble day VFR pilot who tends to keep well away from controlled airspace. However, on a trip to Darwin recently had to run the gammut of the ATC.
Without going into a long explanation, I incurred the mild wrath of an airforce ATC
person.
On my return, I was explaining the incident to a retired QANTAS person, whose explanation was that for reasons unknown, both Tindal and YBAS are different in that they regard a right hand circuit as being where the AIRCRAFT is on the RIGHT side of the active runway. I was always taught that a right hand circuit is where the RUNWAY is on the RIGHT side of the airc raft, and the pilot does right turns.
Is anyone from that area able to confirm this??
Thanks,
Mick
Bottums Up
I've not flown in or out of Tindal for 20 years. I was a regular at Alice until just over a year ago. I've never heard the explanation provided by the "retired Qantas person".
Yep, your understanding of right circuit is, er, right.
Still, if you're talking with respect to the takeoff direction, the other way of stating it is also correct, in that the aircraft turns right after takeoff and remains in that right-hand 'quadrant' with respect to the runway centreline.
Both runway and aircraft are on each others' right, so to speak. It'd be interesting to hear exactly what they didn't seem to like about what you did.
Still, if you're talking with respect to the takeoff direction, the other way of stating it is also correct, in that the aircraft turns right after takeoff and remains in that right-hand 'quadrant' with respect to the runway centreline.
Both runway and aircraft are on each others' right, so to speak. It'd be interesting to hear exactly what they didn't seem to like about what you did.
They appear to be the same thing.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
When I worked for a civvy operator based at Tindal, and flew into Darwin a lot, a left circuit at both places was no different to a left circuit anywhere else. Ditto a right circuit.
Also ditto at any other Mil or Mil/Civil aerodrome I've flown into.
Also ditto at any other Mil or Mil/Civil aerodrome I've flown into.
Huh? What? Who?
A right circuit means the Aircraft makes right turns in the circuit.
A left circuit means the Aircraft makes left turns in the circuit.
How can it be interpreted any different?
A right circuit means the Aircraft makes right turns in the circuit.
A left circuit means the Aircraft makes left turns in the circuit.
How can it be interpreted any different?
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Your understanding of circuit direction and the 'Qantas staff' version are the same.
If I'm standing at the threshold of the rwy with RH circuits, an aircraft in the circuit, on the downwind leg, will be approaching from the right. IE on the RH side of the runway.
Similarly, If I take off to make a circuit, I'll turn right onto croswwind and right onto downwind.
Same.
If I'm standing at the threshold of the rwy with RH circuits, an aircraft in the circuit, on the downwind leg, will be approaching from the right. IE on the RH side of the runway.
Similarly, If I take off to make a circuit, I'll turn right onto croswwind and right onto downwind.
Same.
Thread Starter
Ok, I will try to give a an account of what occurred.
I made two entries into Tindall when the tower was operating, on both occasions got straight in approaches to 14 and 32 respectively without a problem.
However, on my third attempt, I was coming in from Mataranka to the south east.
The ATIS suggested runway 32 was active, and as expecting a straight in approach again. However, someone form the North was keen to do an RNAV approach to position for a straight in approach for 14. The controller asked if he would accept the downwind component and he was happy.
At about 5 miles out, I was then asked to track to Tindal for a Right Downwind for runway 32. This is where the confusion started. My thinking that was that a Right downwind would require me to be approaching at 180 degrees to the direction I was travelling. That is, heading 140, with the runway to my right, and conducting right hand turns to base and final for 32.
I asked the ATC to confirm that she wanted me on a Right downwind for 32, which she did. Given that the circuit procedures state that circuits are preferred to the west of the runways, I presumed she wanted me to fly over the top to the west, descend to runway height, and do a 180 to rejoin mid field cross wind for a RH downwind to 32.
While contemplating this , she asked me to confirm that I was tracking for a right downwind. I replied that my intentions were to fly over the field, descend, do a 180 and join mid field for the right hand circuit. She then informed me that I was already on Right downwind for 32. In a rather exasperated tone, she told me to cross mid field and turn left for downwind join for 32.
As far as I was concerned, at this stage about three miles from the runway centre, I was on a long downwind for a left base for runway 14.
However, I did as I was told , but I was buggered as to how I got it wrong. I rang the tower that afternoon to ask what I did wrong, and although the guy was very good and thanked me for clarifying it, I never really got a straight answer.
When I got back to home base, I asked a few people where I went wrong, and eventually, an ex QANTAS guy told me that both Alice and Tindall were different. I asked him why these procedures were not in the Ersa, or AIP, or whatever , but could not answer me. He just said it was “local knowledge”.
I am still none the wiser, but would like to know why I got it wrong.
Mick
I made two entries into Tindall when the tower was operating, on both occasions got straight in approaches to 14 and 32 respectively without a problem.
However, on my third attempt, I was coming in from Mataranka to the south east.
The ATIS suggested runway 32 was active, and as expecting a straight in approach again. However, someone form the North was keen to do an RNAV approach to position for a straight in approach for 14. The controller asked if he would accept the downwind component and he was happy.
At about 5 miles out, I was then asked to track to Tindal for a Right Downwind for runway 32. This is where the confusion started. My thinking that was that a Right downwind would require me to be approaching at 180 degrees to the direction I was travelling. That is, heading 140, with the runway to my right, and conducting right hand turns to base and final for 32.
I asked the ATC to confirm that she wanted me on a Right downwind for 32, which she did. Given that the circuit procedures state that circuits are preferred to the west of the runways, I presumed she wanted me to fly over the top to the west, descend to runway height, and do a 180 to rejoin mid field cross wind for a RH downwind to 32.
While contemplating this , she asked me to confirm that I was tracking for a right downwind. I replied that my intentions were to fly over the field, descend, do a 180 and join mid field for the right hand circuit. She then informed me that I was already on Right downwind for 32. In a rather exasperated tone, she told me to cross mid field and turn left for downwind join for 32.
As far as I was concerned, at this stage about three miles from the runway centre, I was on a long downwind for a left base for runway 14.
However, I did as I was told , but I was buggered as to how I got it wrong. I rang the tower that afternoon to ask what I did wrong, and although the guy was very good and thanked me for clarifying it, I never really got a straight answer.
When I got back to home base, I asked a few people where I went wrong, and eventually, an ex QANTAS guy told me that both Alice and Tindall were different. I asked him why these procedures were not in the Ersa, or AIP, or whatever , but could not answer me. He just said it was “local knowledge”.
I am still none the wiser, but would like to know why I got it wrong.
Mick
Sounds like you were pretty much spot on. That is until you said
:-)
To be honest, it sounds like she got confused between downwind for 14 and 32 due to the preceding aircraft using 14.
So what did you do in the end, I'm confused, did you end up doing a left hand circuit for 32?
descend to runway height,
To be honest, it sounds like she got confused between downwind for 14 and 32 due to the preceding aircraft using 14.
So what did you do in the end, I'm confused, did you end up doing a left hand circuit for 32?
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All you needed to do was track direct to a right downwind. Don't presume anything and don't fly over the top. Depending on where the other aircraft was, overflying could have put you in its missed approach path.
Last edited by fujii; 30th Sep 2015 at 13:36.
There are no secret traffic rules at TIndal or Alice. But, there can be an awful lot of confusion and delays for civilian aircraft in the Top End, especially in DN when ATC are training. ATC in Alice is exemplary.
As I understand your position was South of the field and Right of the 32 extended centre line. In this case you could have joined finals, or turned left for Right Base 32. I would have asked to confirm join right base 32? Easy said from the comfort of my lounge chair.
Talk of right downwind when you are East of the 32 centre line and South of the field is very confusing. It's a pity you couldn't get clarification from your phone call.
There is a committee who try to smooth things out and harmonise operations in this joint user airspace. An ASIR outlining your experience might find its way into there hands and help improve the system.
As I understand your position was South of the field and Right of the 32 extended centre line. In this case you could have joined finals, or turned left for Right Base 32. I would have asked to confirm join right base 32? Easy said from the comfort of my lounge chair.
Talk of right downwind when you are East of the 32 centre line and South of the field is very confusing. It's a pity you couldn't get clarification from your phone call.
There is a committee who try to smooth things out and harmonise operations in this joint user airspace. An ASIR outlining your experience might find its way into there hands and help improve the system.
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Point 1 - "Right hand circuit" means the same thing at every aerodrome in the country. Right circuit = right turns. Easiest way to remember.
Point 2 - My guess is either the controller meant to say "join right downwind runway 14", not 32 -- or they did, and you're remembering events incorrectly. Standard circuit direction is right on 14 and left on 32 at TN (i.e. all circuits flown away from the military hardstand area).
Approaching from the SE, an instruction to join right downwind for 14 would be completely standard, and expected if they had an aircraft on the 14 RNAV. Conversely, approaching from the SE and getting an instruction to join right downwind for 32 would be completely non-standard, and completely ambiguous, considering you're approaching in the opposite direction.
Golden ATC rule, especially with the RAAF -- if it sounds wrong or you're just not sure, ask for clarification in plain English.
@fujii - How would you "track direct to a right downwind" on runway 32 from the South East? It's impossible.
Point 2 - My guess is either the controller meant to say "join right downwind runway 14", not 32 -- or they did, and you're remembering events incorrectly. Standard circuit direction is right on 14 and left on 32 at TN (i.e. all circuits flown away from the military hardstand area).
Approaching from the SE, an instruction to join right downwind for 14 would be completely standard, and expected if they had an aircraft on the 14 RNAV. Conversely, approaching from the SE and getting an instruction to join right downwind for 32 would be completely non-standard, and completely ambiguous, considering you're approaching in the opposite direction.
Golden ATC rule, especially with the RAAF -- if it sounds wrong or you're just not sure, ask for clarification in plain English.
@fujii - How would you "track direct to a right downwind" on runway 32 from the South East? It's impossible.
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That controller stuffed up if your account is true... Pretty obvious she meant runway 14. So after the fact, it is they who should be apologising to you.
However, we are all human and all make mistakes. It's how we manage mistakes (our own or someone elses) that keeps the sky safe.
You and all of us can also learn from this encounter: for example what could we have said on the radio to clarify the intent of the instruction?
For example:
"Please clarify joining instruction, it doesn't make sense from my current position."
Or the ever so humble:
"I'm sorry, I'm new here, I can't work out your joining instruction."
Or, if you think you know what she meant (bit hard in the heat of the moment, easy here on prune):
"Do you mean right downwind rwy 14? You said rwy 32."
However, we are all human and all make mistakes. It's how we manage mistakes (our own or someone elses) that keeps the sky safe.
You and all of us can also learn from this encounter: for example what could we have said on the radio to clarify the intent of the instruction?
For example:
"Please clarify joining instruction, it doesn't make sense from my current position."
Or the ever so humble:
"I'm sorry, I'm new here, I can't work out your joining instruction."
Or, if you think you know what she meant (bit hard in the heat of the moment, easy here on prune):
"Do you mean right downwind rwy 14? You said rwy 32."
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the input.
My copilot (wife) wrote down the instructions we were given, but we may have both misinterpreted what was said. Or she may have got it wrong.
Whatever, I will make I understand exactly what is required next time I venture into ATC territory.
I did eventually do a left hand circuit in that I joined overhead the centreline for a left downward, left base for 32. The twin coming in on 14 was clear of the runways before I joined mid field cross wind.
I will now go to the ex QANTAS person and ask him again about these different procedures he talks about.
Mick
My copilot (wife) wrote down the instructions we were given, but we may have both misinterpreted what was said. Or she may have got it wrong.
Whatever, I will make I understand exactly what is required next time I venture into ATC territory.
I did eventually do a left hand circuit in that I joined overhead the centreline for a left downward, left base for 32. The twin coming in on 14 was clear of the runways before I joined mid field cross wind.
I will now go to the ex QANTAS person and ask him again about these different procedures he talks about.
Mick
Good stuff, Mick - a good attitude to boot! Some sensible advice from contributors above, too.
