The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Crash in Gordon VIC?

Old 11th Sep 2015, 02:17
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 2,270
The first solo nav is exactly that... a first SOLO nav. Presumably a number of dual Nav's took place prior.

Where does it end though? You can't just not send a student on a nav because there may be cloud in the area.

I'm anticipating seeing a writeup on this exact topic from the ATSB with a few guidelines, but that being said, nothing has changed to warrant a change to the system.

We weren't there so we don't know what happened.
Squawk7700 is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2015, 04:07
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 846
VI, it was VH-TAU in trouble, heard on 120.75/124.1. VH-QQT did a great job of assisting, kudos to you Sir ! I can assure you it was scary listening to it unfold.
It would be valuable to see a write up from the instructor in VH-QQT, on what lessons she/he can pass on from his/her experience.
rjtjrt is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2015, 06:27
  #43 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Wyndham Vale
Posts: 1
Advisory on the student route

Just to advise you, this particular first nav solo takes you past Colac to Swan Marsh, then north to Ballarat, then back to Point Cook via Melton South.
SuperCessna is offline  
Old 11th Sep 2015, 07:14
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Accruing MilliSiverts
Posts: 512
Fool Course Pitch - can you give it a rest please. The dad was understandably hugely distressed at this accident and people like you just make matters so much worse.
Grow up and peddle your unproven hypothetical theories somewhere else at a letter date please.
Al E. Vator is offline  
Old 13th Sep 2015, 10:53
  #45 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Overhead but you didn't notice
Age: 16
Posts: 61

Grow up
FoolCorsePich is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2015, 22:03
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 13

Formulario para peticion de mensajes aeronauticos

Only seems to have the majors though
Centre of Pressure is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2015, 12:12
  #47 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: syd
Posts: 3
Whatever the cause

We don't know what happened to the flight. Hopefully the G1000 has an SD card for flight log.
My condolences go out to the deceased pilot and his/her family,the flying school and the instructor/s who trained and looked after the trainee.
Having been flying around this part of Vic for few years now and I can say that weather around YBLT, the southern slope and ranges is particularly challenging. I am not implying that it is the causal factor for this accident because we don't know yet.
Break break......not implying anything
What is truely missing? The teaching and assessing TEM,NTS in accordance with CAAP 5.59 and MOS Part 61.
Too often,Instructors make decisions for students. When student make a wrong decision they get shouted at. What about demonstrate, direct and monitor situational awareness and decision making ? What about read the CAAP and few other human factor books on aeronautical decision making?
VHQOK is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2018, 03:22
  #48 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cab of a Freight Train
Age: 36
Posts: 423
So the report is out now and suggests a mis-managed autopilot, or rather, attempting to hand-fly in pitch, with the autopilot also engaged, such that when it was disengaged the aircraft was seriously out of trim with insufficient height/awareness to recover. Of note, Garmin doesn't think a caution against doing so, in the same vein as the previous Bendix King autopilot, is warrented as apparently not doing so 'is common knowledge' - well, apparently not...

The last recorded data shows a -10* FD pitch command, and a -24* pitch angle. At around 750AGL. Small wonder the MLG and nose (not the NLG) hit almost simultaneously. Yikes!

Also it's interesting to note a requirement of the school that NavEx's be conducted with a minimum height of 1000AGL, and the plan is to be checked by an instructor. The plan for the accident flight resulted in a clearance of only 250AGL on one leg. "But, but. but, most students flew to one side of the hill..."
KRviator is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2018, 05:29
  #49 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Here and there
Posts: 327
Excellent report by ATSB. But what an avoidable tragic accident. I note that the flight instrumentation in that modern Cessna 172 includes a modern glass cockpit and autopilot flight director system. FD's were designed to aid instrument flying. That flight was a VFR cross-country presumably using map reading which means looking outside.

Perhaps training organisations need to avoid getting sucked in by the seduction of todays sophisticated flight instrument and autopilot displays that come with new aircraft. Students should not be using flight directors or autopilots during ab-initio training; and that includes cross-country map reading.

No wonder that pilots brought up to use these relatively sophisticated aids in their light training aircraft types so early in their flying career (the unfortunate young pilot only had 50 hours flying experience), eventually become the "automatic monkeys" commonly found on the flight decks of airliners.

The flying school concerned quite rightly reminded its students to only use the autopilot (includes the FD) to reduce the workload if things get too much. They forget however, it is only natural for today's new pilots brought up and expert on using IPads and smart phones will want to play with the aircraft automatics and their colourful instrument flying goodies, during solo cross country legs with no one looking over their shoulder.
Judd is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2018, 06:12
  #50 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Gold coast
Posts: 24
Very sad condolenses to family and friends
Jetman346 is online now  
Old 17th Apr 2018, 09:12
  #51 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 398
The flying school concerned quite rightly reminded its students to only use the autopilot (includes the FD) to reduce the workload if things get too much.
Unless you are very familiar with the functions, the autopilot is likely to increase the workload rather than decrease it. "What's it doing now" or "Why is it doing that" are classic phrases leading up to accidents right up to jet transport level when a system isn't well enough understood.

Part of human factors training should be to recognise when technology is becoming a distraction and go back to the basics of manual flying (aviate, etc...)
andrewr is offline  
Old 17th Apr 2018, 10:48
  #52 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Victoria
Posts: 716
Originally Posted by Squawk7700 View Post
Just heard that the pilot was female. Makes it even worse as there are so few girls flying these days. Very upsetting for all involved.
Thanks Squarkie. Appreciate the thought.

Sincere condolences to family, friends and colleagues.

kaz3g is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.