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Crash in Gordon VIC?

Old 9th Sep 2015, 04:30
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TAU

Very sad news indeed. Condolences to the family and friends of the Pilot killed near Ballarat.

VI, it was VH-TAU in trouble, heard on 120.75/124.1. VH-QQT did a great job of assisting, kudos to you Sir ! I can assure you it was scary listening to it unfold.

FMC.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 08:30
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Although there is a comment on the Channel 9 link, from someone at the Ballarat Aeroclub that the ceiling was 1500'AGL at the time of the accident.
If you look at the WAC you can see that you are crossing the tip of the great divide in this area. The area is about 500' higher than Ballarat, this hill might be 800' higher.

I have driven the route often in bad weather and it is very common that the weather at Gordon is worse than Ballarat, with low cloud and drizzle. There can be significant differences in weather from one side of the range to the other, depending on the wind direction.

Ballarat TAF doesn't mean much away from the airfield, you need to look at the Area forecast.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 08:50
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Why send someone into what can be tiger country on a first solo nav, especially from Point Cook??

There is the highway to follow, but to the East is the Lerderderg Gorge area so bugging out that way is most unwise, then to the West of the highway there is the high ground around Gordon. Both sides rough country and forest.

Why not send a solo nav in what is Victorian spring weather to Colac or suchlike? No high ground, plenty of paddock space and you can see the weather coming.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:58
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Wow, stop with the weather/route/sign-out bashing.

If you're going to bash the sign out, bash it on its own. Maybe she shouldn't have been signed out to fly solo in the first place regardless of the weather? I'm not implying it was her own aptitude that caused it, god no, now that would just be politically incorrect right? Maybe RMIT being the box ticking organization that it is failed to drum into the student some basic principles of flight, and failing that, what VMC is, how turning around actually is an option or what to do in the even of inadvertent cloud entry. Just look at that ball of wreckage ffs. That does not simply happen because of a sign out. The poor sheila had greater issues with her training that unfortunately for her and her family, became apparent a bit too late.

'Oh but FCP, dont speculate like that, its far too early for that kind of stuff?!!?'

Yeah righto, then I suppose a wing detatched. Happens all the time.

On a final note, lets be honest, its pretty fun bashing sausage factories isnt it? I mean, its not like anything good has ever come out of them anyway.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 10:09
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My first solo nav was BK KAT BTH (full stop landing) MIG BK. Check that out on google earth Sunny. Where do you reckon they should have sent her? Colac? Right. I had 100% confidence that my instructor would NOT have sent me if I wasn't ready, G'day Marcus or Mucus, as he was known.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 10:51
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FCP taking poor timing , disrespect and distasteful commentary to new levels.

Congratulations.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 11:18
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accident

It has gone in out of control to sustain such terrible damage. Poor little bugger.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 11:23
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Just heard that the pilot was female. Makes it even worse as there are so few girls flying these days. Very upsetting for all involved.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:15
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Doesn't make it worse, a life is a life.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:24
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Sq7700 taking sexism to new levels.

Congratulations.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 12:26
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Originally Posted by FoolCorsePich View Post
Sq7700 taking sexism to new levels.

Congratulations.
Don't be ridiculous, that is the dumbest thing I've heard.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 03:45
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Has it been established for certain that this was in fact her 1st solo nav..? Without knowing specifics such as :-
- Was it her 1st solo nav..?
- Her demonstrated capabilities..?
- The weather at the time..?
We probably shouldn't be speculating or passing judgement. Only thing I would say though, IF it was a 1st solo nav, it wasn't the day for it. If it wasn't 1st solo nav, then depending on how far along in her training she was, with all things considered and ok'd then fair enough.


In any event, this is a tragic loss of a young life. Sincerest condolences to the family and all concerned.
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 21:33
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What was the RAAF expression for needless training risk? "Practicing bleeding"? Where was the "get out of jail" option for her?
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 21:56
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It's just pure bad luck that the pilot found themselves in a situation they had probably not come across before.

With that level of inexperience, they would not have acquired any street-smarts, and totally unaware of the position they were in.

Backing up a bit.....
Our first solo's are fraught with danger! We don't know a damn thing, but manage to get around the circuit. If an engine failure occurred during that first solo circuit, I wonder how we would have coped?
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Old 10th Sep 2015, 22:02
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Very recently a runway was closed at a small country strip due to an incident. No dramas normally except a student was up on their first solo. They subsequently had to try and find an alternate, (10nm away) but couldn't find it as they had never been there before.

You wouldn't normally think of that happening in advance !
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Old 11th Sep 2015, 00:05
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Here's the thing.

More than ever, flight training is about mitigation , and for you older folk who did it the old way, yes -now at times to the detriment of basic skills and knowledge - sometimes the syllabus is presented in such depth that it misses simple key elements, or is simply not taught correctly due to being too detailed and confusing in the first place. The reality is that at its core it hasn't changed all that much, just the wording and presentation has become a wankfest.

It Still comes down to the individual instructor and his or her ability to convey the stuff that actually matters while still reaching the required tolerances as well as the "non technical skills" (Airmanship FFS!)

I don't have much recent knowledge on the organisation involved here, but what I do know is that it was, in the past, renowned for setting extremely high standards of its staff and students. I can't see any reason for it to have changed.

For all you guys pointing fingers who have not instructed, then you should simply walk away from this discussion. For any student to get to the first solo Nav, they have jumped through plenty of hoops, and proven to a relatively experienced instructor and a flight examiner that they are capable of dealing with many types of emergencies and situations.

The thing is, you cant show all situations to a student (you couldn't if you flew with them for 5 years), and you have to make an educated guess based on what you do see. There is always some element of risk but you've just spent the previous period of time trying to mitigate them. Perhaps a student is strong, and during the sign outs, They're able to discuss the wx and what they would do in various scenarios, but faced with a situation out of the box the worse happens?.

It will all come out in the wash, as no pilots paper work will be more in depth and recent as a student pilot.
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Old 11th Sep 2015, 00:50
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Probably not. I believe ATC assisted with three unrelated VFR-in-IMC or VFR-on-top-of-cloud incidents in various parts of Victoria yesterday. THis crash is not included in those.
VI, it was VH-TAU in trouble, heard on 120.75/124.1. VH-QQT did a great job of assisting, kudos to you Sir ! I can assure you it was scary listening to it unfold.
Also being investigated by the ATSB https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...-2015-106.aspx
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Old 11th Sep 2015, 01:49
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The ATSB has commenced an investigation into an occurrence where a PA28 aircraft, VH-TAU, inadvertently entered cloud while on a solo visual flight rules navigation exercise. The pilot in VH-TAU radioed for ATC assistance. An instructor in a nearby SR22 aircraft, gave assistance to the pilot by radio, enabling them to climb the PA28 above the cloud. The SR22 then accompanied VH-TAU back to Moorabbin Airport.

As part of the investigation, the ATSB will interview the pilots of both aircraft, obtain operator reports and ATC data. A report is expected within several months.
That was very noble of the SR22 pilot. I'm guessing the pilot was probably quite shaken.

Damn lucky the cloud was able to be climbed through. I'm aware of pilots that have entered it at 1500 or so, only to find that it went up to 9,000 and beyond! (60,000ft on one occasion where something like this happened)
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Old 11th Sep 2015, 02:04
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I'll repeat what I said earlier. If it was a 1st solo nav, it wasn't the day for it. Can I respectfully suggest that the best way to mitigate the risk would have been to wait for a better day? There's plenty of opportunity to fly in more marginal conditions both dual & solo later on. If I don't see a cloud base of 3,500', good vis and no sign of deteriorating weather, I won't send them 1st solo. Too conservative..? Maybe, maybe not.


Of course if it wasn't a 1st solo nav then the approach becomes less conservative depending on the individual circumstances. I still haven't seen anything yet that confirms if in this case, this was a 1st solo nav or not.
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Old 11th Sep 2015, 02:17
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I'll repeat what I said earlier. If it was a 1st solo nav, it wasn't the day for it. Can I respectfully suggest that the best way to mitigate the risk would have been to wait for a better day? There's plenty of opportunity to fly in more marginal conditions both dual & solo later on. If I don't see a cloud base of 3,500', good vis and no sign of deteriorating weather, I won't send them 1st solo. Too conservative..? Maybe, maybe not.
Anywhere you can dig up a historical TAF/ARFOR?
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