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Restoring or Cleaning Windows

Old 4th Sep 2015, 02:48
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
And will more rules, and arguments about rules, change "the attitude"?

But it may save some lame from the likes of a know it all like yourself.
Easy to be brave when you don't have to sign it
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 04:00
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But surely the person who does the botch job does have to sign for it. The rules require it.
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Old 4th Sep 2015, 05:09
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Only if the aircraft is released to service.
In the cases I was thinking of the aircraft remained on the ground while replacement windscreens were ordered. Something like a 172 is a mongrel to get right. Breaking a new screen is a waste all the same.
Most hangars are more than happy for the owner to be involved for that reason.

I have seen pics taken by owners where the job looks good, great even but then you see metal scrapers and the acidic sealant in the background. Not the end of the world obviously but just a shame that a few basic steps have been missed.
Some of the owners have been good though and managed to get a log entry organised.
The corrosion issues are not really a concern and are probably a little academic anyway.

The signature should still be for the job being done, and to an acceptable standard at that.
It is the guys that don't manage the log entry that are the problem all the same.
I can live with a bad job on someone-else's aeroplane, just as long as he takes responsibility for it. As others have mentioned here, - it should not be something that will bring the aircraft down anyway.
All the owner has to do is a log entry.
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Old 5th Sep 2015, 01:05
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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You really are self important aren't you? Do you think you are the only person in the world with knowledge and trade skills?
Seriously, light aircraft aren't the pinnacle of modern design or engineering and the relevant maintenance guides are readily available online in the modern world. Do you REALLY think a flat piece of acrylic sheet that is non structural needs any more "spec" than replacing with similar thickness and UV resistance??
It's a light aircraft, unpressurised. Please tell me what will happen if a window is installed incorrectly. Will it leak or crack? Not life threatening.
We're not talking about triple laminated airliner windscreens here....

Are you sure. What grade is the acrylic. Where did you get the information of the spec grade for that screen. Etc etc etc.
you have entered the black hole. It's easy to be brave when you don't have to sign it !!!!

Just like now if you wish to have a AD that is wrong looked at you have to pay for it to be accessed

Why don't you ask aurora about doing maintenance on a aircraft and then make an assessment on what you may or may not do !!!
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Old 5th Sep 2015, 02:48
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Back to the thread topic. Annual finished today. The windows were done with Meguire's PlastX and a buffing wheel then finished off with Plexus. Looks good and they are old windows.
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Old 5th Sep 2015, 03:15
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I am pretty sure he was not debating the type or grade as regards the strength or other properties.
It is just an example of something that can be made within the rules but may not necessarily be so easy as some may assume.

Again I get involved a lot in local manufacture of aircraft items. I hear owners talk a lot about 'structural' also but the engineers hardly ever class items as structural or non-structural.
Fairings and other fibreglass items would presumably be classed as non-structural by these same owners. I know I have actually heard owners talking about such fairings as though they were open slather as they were 'non-structural'.
You would have to imagine these fellows actually believe the rules differentiate.... as far as I am aware, they don't !

For major repairs we may hear the terms Primary Structure, Tertiary Structure and the likes.

Yes, we can make new fairings and windows. There are procedures for it. There are also many easier methods that can be used though. One clue would be that it is much easier for a LAME to 'repair' something rather than 'manufacture' it.

Fairings would be a good example there. They can be repaired but to replace may even mean purchasing a STC'd item. We see this with wing tips and wheel fairings.

The rules for local manufacture or 'owner made' are pretty standard about the world.
An owner can make any part. Anything at all and how he/she wants it.
There is nothing stopping them.

What they can't do however is fit it to an airworthy certified aircraft.
They can if the aircraft has the item written up as a defect and the new item is not included in the repair. ie, the aircraft is not released back to service.

You can make a cardboard window, no problems at all.
Many would call that a template though, something you may be using to enable the manufacture of an acrylic one.
Indeed the rules often call for a collaborative effort between the owner and LAME to make parts.
The LAME can't put homemade stuff on your aircraft without your authority. Similarly the owner can't make up stuff and then try and fit it to the plane.

What generally happens is that the LAME tells the owner they need to make a part. The owner must be involved and approves the material specs and other data they require in order to make the part. In the case of a window plastic both parties agree on the thickness, the tint and the material.
The rules make mention of the requirements here. It can not be sub-standard in any way.

The item is then made. Anyone can do that but the owner must have an involvement. Whatever is going on must not be a surprise to the owner.

The only person that can accept and certify the final product and then go on to fit it though is the LAME. The owner has no authority whatsoever there, in any country that I have worked in.

It is a very common procedure all the same and is one we would have to use from time to time. Repairing something is regarded as the easier option all the same. Often it depends on what the LAME is comfortable certifying and how he wants to approach things. AC 43.13-1B is his best friend normally.

An owner is welcome to say it is non structural, won't do any harm and I can knock one up and fit it.
I am sure many guys have that attitude.

There will be many about that say that they own their aircraft and medicals and flight review make no difference. They can fly whenever.

Neither are legal but of course don't stop some pilots flying.
There will be some pilots that want to fly and operate within the rules though.
I would like to think that would be the majority but sometimes you do have to wonder.
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Old 5th Sep 2015, 03:54
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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OH MY GAWD!...three pages on Perspex restoration. Really? ..and still only a few character assassinations. Gotta love forums..

Personally, I asked 'Google' and got a great instructional YouTube video on restoring my MGA coupe backlight. I could have phoned my local 'glassier' as they also install and service perspex, but that is so passée and too easy..

Last edited by evansb; 5th Sep 2015 at 04:09.
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Old 5th Sep 2015, 05:50
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Hmmm, I did a Google and discovered that a MGA coupe is not an aeroplane.
Let alone a Type Certified one registered in Australasia.

There will be any number of guys on these forums with mechanical aptitude and skills. I work alongside such owners regularly and they are resourceful and great company.
Invariably their knowledge of the regs is near non-existent and they are keen to listen and learn. That said, every airfield also seems to have a 'character' that knows more than everyone, and anyone, else.

The cleaning of the windscreen was easily sorted. The OP got some good replies.
The option of replacing the windows is still there and available.
Listening to someone that says you can make some replacements out of cheap acrylic sheet may not be such a good idea.
Indeed if you want to remain legal it is not an option.
I thought the best advice was to have a word with the LAME if you wanted something installed.
I very much doubt it would take 3 pages to get the correct gen. A few minutes would do it and how much would you be paying for some sound advice ?

I remember asking a question on a Cherokee forum once. How many members had actually endorsed an aircraft logbook with a Release to Service or similar entry. Not one person replied.

Perhaps we could ask here...
How many guys here have actually certified the fitting of replacement windows to a certificated aircraft ?

*** EDIT ***
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-vz-BnPOPk

Last edited by baron_beeza; 5th Sep 2015 at 05:53. Reason: Video clip added.
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Old 5th Sep 2015, 09:40
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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The intent of shed 8 is not for requeral type maintenance but for break downs away from an airfield with a maintenance facility.
yr' wrong,
Complete rubbish, Schedule 8 means exactly what it says.
Tootle pip!!
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Old 5th Sep 2015, 10:49
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Sched 8 is reasonably new to me but I am well aware of similar listings and procedures from other countries. I have included a couple of links to interpretations of the lists. Neither are great explanations and each leaves some room for personal interpretation.

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/file...-operators.pdf

AOPA Pilots' Guide to Preventive Maintenance

The AOPA guide has a pilot feel to it and I think could be improved upon in certain areas.
You can soon see by comparing the two that they have similarities and each may help answer questions raised by the other.

I doubt the owner can go far wrong even if the interpretation is off beam.
Provided the work is done satisfactorily and certified then he has made an honest go of it. We have seen from this thread, and a similar one running concurrently, that we have different interpretations probably based on our backgrounds and experiences...... and desires.

Neither of those documents really address the protocols to which the work is normally carried out. The supply and fitting of spares is barely touched upon and yet Part 21 is one of the bigger sections in the regs. Many owners would feel that identifying a P/N and sending an email to Aircraft Spruce is SOP.
I doubt many are interested in researching the actual procedure as it makes little difference to the end result in their eyes.
I am talking side windows again here but it can quickly become much more complicated than either of the linked document indicates.
I think in reading them we should appreciate they are both very much 'dumbed down' versions of the actual rules and protocols.

The LAME, or A&P, works with this stuff on a daily basis and should have a fair idea of the operating requirements of the rules and how best to navigate about them. I am pretty confident he won't be 100% correct but at least if you work within his version then that is one less person that could potentially be upset.
All I expect from the owners would be good communication and records. I would talk them through the log entries, over the phone even if necessary.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 00:23
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Polishing perspex

Just don't get carried away with an electric buffer.

I saw someone use one once and it generated enough heat that the window suddenly went all soft..........he then had replace the window
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