Why do Lycomings start lean?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Left 270
The Airframe and Powerplant Mechanics Powerplant Handbook produced by the FAA gives a fairly detailed explanation of the systems.
PK
The Airframe and Powerplant Mechanics Powerplant Handbook produced by the FAA gives a fairly detailed explanation of the systems.
PK
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
PA39
The lines up to the cylinder from the FCU contain no pressure once the mixture is at ICO.
OK, this is my observation of why it is the TCM and Lyc are different. In my opinion and observation a TCM will not pump much fuel at cranking RPM which is very very low. The overly rich situation eventually (and quickly) finds the right F/A ratio and lights off. The low RPM and thus low extra fuel delivery means no excess post-priming fuel will dribble in.
The Lycoming which is now primed up and overly rich, waiting for the F/A ratio to get optimal will start pumping fuel according to mass airflow immediately (and at the FR position this will be very rich….and will be too rich to start when combined with the primed amount.
Two different systems, two different techniques.
The lines up to the cylinder from the FCU contain no pressure once the mixture is at ICO.
OK, this is my observation of why it is the TCM and Lyc are different. In my opinion and observation a TCM will not pump much fuel at cranking RPM which is very very low. The overly rich situation eventually (and quickly) finds the right F/A ratio and lights off. The low RPM and thus low extra fuel delivery means no excess post-priming fuel will dribble in.
The Lycoming which is now primed up and overly rich, waiting for the F/A ratio to get optimal will start pumping fuel according to mass airflow immediately (and at the FR position this will be very rich….and will be too rich to start when combined with the primed amount.
Two different systems, two different techniques.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
27/09
I tend to agree, cold ones present less opportunity to stuff up. One is not harder, just some find ways to create that scenario.
I would bet your local school 172's are not being started exactly as I describe. There will be all manner of throttle positions, mixture, priming and hence the problems.
The engine, provided it has good plugs, good mags and a F/A ratio that is right, WILL start every time. No argument. The pilot controls the F/A ratio and assuming the engine is "conforming to spec" all you do is get the F/A ratio right.
Some Lycoming operators who apply a bit of TCM start procedure (seen this a lot) always have problems. I bet that is what you are observing.
It's almost impossible to stuff up a cold start but I've seen plenty of botched hot starts. There's one flying school not far from here who's students seem to have no end of bother with hot starts on their injected C172's.
I would bet your local school 172's are not being started exactly as I describe. There will be all manner of throttle positions, mixture, priming and hence the problems.
The engine, provided it has good plugs, good mags and a F/A ratio that is right, WILL start every time. No argument. The pilot controls the F/A ratio and assuming the engine is "conforming to spec" all you do is get the F/A ratio right.
Some Lycoming operators who apply a bit of TCM start procedure (seen this a lot) always have problems. I bet that is what you are observing.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 'Stralia!
Age: 47
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As soon as I saw this thread go up, I thought, Jaba will be all over this very soon, and you did not disappoint!
I like my Contis for starting simplicity.... Prime it just shy of it catching fire and hit the switch and away she goes!
How much priming is just before catching fire? Well, that's the rub, isn't it!
I like my Contis for starting simplicity.... Prime it just shy of it catching fire and hit the switch and away she goes!
How much priming is just before catching fire? Well, that's the rub, isn't it!
Jabba:I would bet your local school 172's are not being started exactly as I describe. There will be all manner of throttle positions, mixture, priming and hence the problems.
Jabba:The engine, provided it has good plugs, good mags and a F/A ratio that is right, WILL start every time. No argument. The pilot controls the F/A ratio and assuming the engine is "conforming to spec" all you do is get the F/A ratio right.
I find with a hot start if it doesn't start after the first or second attempt you will need to prime. The amount of priming required can be hard to determine. On the next attempt after priming if there's not ignition after 4 to 5 blades I start opening the throttle to vary the F/A and almost always get a successful start.
Advancing the throttle on the first attempt at a hot start very often works as well.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ACMS
True - but then push down gear lever down after RH engine has shut down to check LH engine hydraulic pump
But - [ and there is always a "but" ] when checking LH hyd. pump on shut down, it may be a bit lazier due to higher hydraulic oil temp
True - but then push down gear lever down after RH engine has shut down to check LH engine hydraulic pump
But - [ and there is always a "but" ] when checking LH hyd. pump on shut down, it may be a bit lazier due to higher hydraulic oil temp
What I do, for a conti semi-hot start on level ground, is...
1. Pat my head and rub my tummy
2. Flick the fuel pump on and off quickly five to seven times depending on the height of my shortest passenger
3. Say a short prayer
4. ....
Oh wait a minute, that's right. I don't any of those old wives tales and make up bull**** as I go along.
I just do what the AFM/AOM says on any type I fly - and LO AND BEHOLD.... it works every time.
Who'd have thought the AIRCRAFT MANUFACTURER would know the best way to start their aircraft, ey?
/End rant.
1. Pat my head and rub my tummy
2. Flick the fuel pump on and off quickly five to seven times depending on the height of my shortest passenger
3. Say a short prayer
4. ....
Oh wait a minute, that's right. I don't any of those old wives tales and make up bull**** as I go along.
I just do what the AFM/AOM says on any type I fly - and LO AND BEHOLD.... it works every time.
Who'd have thought the AIRCRAFT MANUFACTURER would know the best way to start their aircraft, ey?
/End rant.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Pete, that is good. But not all POH's are created equal.
We (APS) know and actually highlight in class, several POH's that are, lets call it sub-optimal in terms of reliable information. One that springs to mind is inflight restarts. Don't ask me which one off the top of my head, but lets just say the book describes a process that makes it worse not better.
So the idea is understand the science, then you can critically think through the POH and determine if the one you are reading is a gem POH, or a POS.
Cheers
We (APS) know and actually highlight in class, several POH's that are, lets call it sub-optimal in terms of reliable information. One that springs to mind is inflight restarts. Don't ask me which one off the top of my head, but lets just say the book describes a process that makes it worse not better.
So the idea is understand the science, then you can critically think through the POH and determine if the one you are reading is a gem POH, or a POS.
Cheers
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
gee wouldn't it be great if the manufactures provided a system that when running at or just above idle the engine actually took care of its on f/a mixture. perhaps they could call it lets say an idle circuit. omg what did you say they already do well ill be ???????
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: ˙ǝqɐq ǝɯ ʇ,uıɐ ʇɐɥʇ 'sɔıʇɐqoɹǝɐ ɹoɟ uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɯɐu ɹıǝɥʇ ʇnd ǝɯos
Posts: 272
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Shytorque - I've been after a good explanation of this conundrum for years.
You land and then taxi to the ramp and cut the fuel to your hot fuel injected Lycoming by starving it of fuel by pulling the mixture.
Then as if by magic 5 mins later you start the engine with the mixture still cut off!
Heat soak! Simples
You land and then taxi to the ramp and cut the fuel to your hot fuel injected Lycoming by starving it of fuel by pulling the mixture.
Then as if by magic 5 mins later you start the engine with the mixture still cut off!
Heat soak! Simples
Originally Posted by 27/09
There's one flying school not far from here who's students seem to have no end of bother with hot starts on their injected C172's. However like anything YMMV.
Also I have a lot of experience with pilots new to an aircraft and or fuel injection and they tend to be ham fisted with starts usually having too much throttle set...
Also I have a lot of experience with pilots new to an aircraft and or fuel injection and they tend to be ham fisted with starts usually having too much throttle set...
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I've seen <insert name of nearby sausage factory> students in brand new 172's use the cold start procedure after refuelling and sit there wondering why it won't start. It's enough to make you weep.