Hard yards or Cadetship and the future of GA.
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Yes, I think you're right and both the Jetstar and Virgin cadetships are on hold. I've also heard the last batch of Jetstart cadets are still waiting for a slot and will be for a long time.
I've met maybe a dozen Jetstar cadets over the past few years and they all seemed to think they'd won the lottery.
Also know one guy who did the Sharp Airlines cadetship and is not flying RPT turbines. He was very happy with the training and outcome.
I've met maybe a dozen Jetstar cadets over the past few years and they all seemed to think they'd won the lottery.
Also know one guy who did the Sharp Airlines cadetship and is not flying RPT turbines. He was very happy with the training and outcome.
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The airlines will be fine. As Chimbu pointed out there's been no GA in Europe for decades. Easyjet and Ryanair have been taking the vast majority of their pilots as 200 hour cadets for 20+ years now and most of their captains now are products of that system, they've never flown GA or C206's or anything of the sort, they've never known anything outside of a B737 / A320 and believe it or not they're actually all bloody good. As long as the training department is robust and knows their stuff, and is free to operate without management / financial pressure, the system works.
Furthermore there are more than a few halfwits floating around the contract world, guys with the legendary Aussie "GA background" who presumably have stick and rudder skills, but also have some pretty cowboy attitudes and interpersonal skills. A d
khead is going to be a dkhead whether he's got a GA background or not.
For what it's worth, I predict that the traditional "stepping stone" route from GA to airline is going to continue to decline, and eventually fall by the wayside altogether. Simply because cadet schemes are more profitable for the airlines and also easier to plan and administer. Your argument that the airlines "need" GA to give pilots the essential old-school stick and rudder that they need, is, I'm afraid to say, a complete load of baloney. I flew with plenty of ex-cadet captains in my Easyjet days and it would be absolutely ridiculous to accuse them, of being in any way less competent or somehow deficient, compared to the ex-mil or ex-GA guys.
You make a fair enough argument that there's always going to be a need for GA in Oz, therefore, GA needs to step up to the plate and solve their own problems. You seem pretty keen to spread the blame around the schools and the airlines and CASA for breaking down the supply of "quality applicants" that your business wants, but not so keen to ask what GA as an industry can do to attract and keep those guys.
You have already recognized that the stepping-stone model has broken down, therefore you need to also realize the logical conclusion from that, that you are no longer a "feeder" for the airlines, you are directly competing with them, to attract and keep the quality pilots that you seek.
Furthermore there are more than a few halfwits floating around the contract world, guys with the legendary Aussie "GA background" who presumably have stick and rudder skills, but also have some pretty cowboy attitudes and interpersonal skills. A d
khead is going to be a dkhead whether he's got a GA background or not.For what it's worth, I predict that the traditional "stepping stone" route from GA to airline is going to continue to decline, and eventually fall by the wayside altogether. Simply because cadet schemes are more profitable for the airlines and also easier to plan and administer. Your argument that the airlines "need" GA to give pilots the essential old-school stick and rudder that they need, is, I'm afraid to say, a complete load of baloney. I flew with plenty of ex-cadet captains in my Easyjet days and it would be absolutely ridiculous to accuse them, of being in any way less competent or somehow deficient, compared to the ex-mil or ex-GA guys.
You make a fair enough argument that there's always going to be a need for GA in Oz, therefore, GA needs to step up to the plate and solve their own problems. You seem pretty keen to spread the blame around the schools and the airlines and CASA for breaking down the supply of "quality applicants" that your business wants, but not so keen to ask what GA as an industry can do to attract and keep those guys.
You have already recognized that the stepping-stone model has broken down, therefore you need to also realize the logical conclusion from that, that you are no longer a "feeder" for the airlines, you are directly competing with them, to attract and keep the quality pilots that you seek.
Your argument that the airlines "need" GA to give pilots the essential old-school stick and rudder that they need, is, I'm afraid to say, a complete load of baloney
Informed I was ex RAAF and ex airline, he told me bluntly that he would not embarrass his young captains by having me in the RH seat and furthermore at my age (45) I wouldn't have the strength to lift the bags into the hold. I had the impression he had a real dislike of RAAF trained pilots.
Similar attitude when talking to the deputy chief pilot of an MU2 operation at Essendon. As soon as he saw the same one page CV, this character said thanks - but no thanks. I asked him what was the problem? He said as a former RAAF pilot I wouldn't have a clue about flying single pilot IFR and in any case I would expect too much of aircraft serviceability in GA. In other words he required pilots who would be happy to fly a defective aircraft and say nothing.
Since both these events happened within a few days of each other, I can tell you it was not a pleasant and fulfilling introduction to the world of general aviation in Australia.
Last edited by Centaurus; 8th Jun 2015 at 05:50.
250 hours and a an Air Force "cadet" is in the RHS of a C17, B737 or A330....
They seem to keep their big machines out of the dirt and you never hear people whining about the "RAAF cadetship", in fact you often see people telling starters..."you want an flying career? Try starting out in the RAAF!"
So why do people only have an issue with airline cadetships?
They seem to keep their big machines out of the dirt and you never hear people whining about the "RAAF cadetship", in fact you often see people telling starters..."you want an flying career? Try starting out in the RAAF!"
So why do people only have an issue with airline cadetships?
Some might argue that signing over 12 years of your life to the government is just as bad...
And isn't half of GA supposed to be ripping off punters looking for experience for that jet job? How are we encouraging people to take the GA route if we are concerned for the young pilots welfare? Looks to me like they are being fed to the sharks no matter what route they take...
So again, what's the issue with airline cadets?
And isn't half of GA supposed to be ripping off punters looking for experience for that jet job? How are we encouraging people to take the GA route if we are concerned for the young pilots welfare? Looks to me like they are being fed to the sharks no matter what route they take...
So again, what's the issue with airline cadets?
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There's no issue with airline cadets.
The original poster is a GA operator, who is understandably concerned about the breakdown of the conventional career progression path from GA to the airlines, in favour of cadet programs.
His concern in this is not the welfare of the airlines, or the safety of the travelling public once there's no more pilots with "GA experience"
driving the 'buses and Boeings.
It's the clear and obvious fact that given the current state of GA, very few people in their right mind will touch it with a 40 foot pole, or even commence flight training outside of a cadet program, once the airlines become a closed shop and GA becomes a dead end career with no progression path.
Should this situation come to pass, it will obviously have a drastic impact on his ability to cherry pick one or two guys from the several hundred CV's he's used to having on his table.
Hence why he's a bit grumpy and crying that this is probably his "last post" and prophesizing that the whole industry is about to come to an end.
There's an obvious solution to this problem, but it would unfortunately involve the dreaded "spending of money"
The original poster is a GA operator, who is understandably concerned about the breakdown of the conventional career progression path from GA to the airlines, in favour of cadet programs.
His concern in this is not the welfare of the airlines, or the safety of the travelling public once there's no more pilots with "GA experience"
driving the 'buses and Boeings.It's the clear and obvious fact that given the current state of GA, very few people in their right mind will touch it with a 40 foot pole, or even commence flight training outside of a cadet program, once the airlines become a closed shop and GA becomes a dead end career with no progression path.
Should this situation come to pass, it will obviously have a drastic impact on his ability to cherry pick one or two guys from the several hundred CV's he's used to having on his table.
Hence why he's a bit grumpy and crying that this is probably his "last post" and prophesizing that the whole industry is about to come to an end.
There's an obvious solution to this problem, but it would unfortunately involve the dreaded "spending of money"
My user name reflects my decision to turn my back on RAAF and CPL options in the mid-70's, because I was consistently told "there is no future in aviation".
One of those selling me that message retired 30 years later with 28,000 hours from an international long haul career.
There is much that is wrong with GA at present; the regulatory environment and cost structures in particular.
But GA will continue to be an around for as long as there is a commercial need for it. And young people who want to fly will still see it as an option.
In this, it is no different to any other industry. Not every business will thrive and not every aspirant will establish a career.
But I must admit that I was pleased CoodaKid3 chose the RAAF route and proved himself good enough to earn the Wings that were pinned to his chest last week.
It seems the wise men I listened to 40 years ago may have been a trifle pessimistic......and wrong.
One of those selling me that message retired 30 years later with 28,000 hours from an international long haul career.
There is much that is wrong with GA at present; the regulatory environment and cost structures in particular.
But GA will continue to be an around for as long as there is a commercial need for it. And young people who want to fly will still see it as an option.
In this, it is no different to any other industry. Not every business will thrive and not every aspirant will establish a career.
But I must admit that I was pleased CoodaKid3 chose the RAAF route and proved himself good enough to earn the Wings that were pinned to his chest last week.
It seems the wise men I listened to 40 years ago may have been a trifle pessimistic......and wrong.
Just finished reading the book "A Lifetime in Long Haul" by a retired 747 Captain. Himself and his cadet colleagues of that era were required to do a couple of years of GA flying in the NT, Qld and PNG, before joining the airline as Second officers. Most of them seemed to value the experience
Would this be a solution? Maybe it's a lack of structured career path that dissuades good people from wanting to become pilots, and this could provide a source of well trained, motivated pilots for GA operators?
Would this be a solution? Maybe it's a lack of structured career path that dissuades good people from wanting to become pilots, and this could provide a source of well trained, motivated pilots for GA operators?
Deadcut wrote:
"While in the RAAF you get paid a salary WHILE you train in an all expenses paid course."
And if you go through ADFA, you also end up with a degree with no HECS debt...
"While in the RAAF you get paid a salary WHILE you train in an all expenses paid course."
And if you go through ADFA, you also end up with a degree with no HECS debt...
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It seems there is some major confusion out there in the difference between GA or Charter operators that I am talking about and RPT and the regional scheduled airlines. It seems that some are thinking GA covers all operators that isn't a heavy.
My concern is the loss of charter operators. This is the target group for the new Part 135.
Charter operators are mainly small business less than 10 aircraft most are only running two or three small light aircraft and are by far these charter companies are the biggest employers of low time pilots in Australia.
The latest statistics showing the number of AOC holders by Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport, & Regional Economics (BITRE) Report 115 as of Febuary 2015 are as follows
Charter operators- 593
Flight Training operators - 188
RPT operators - 31
The figures for 2009 were
Charter operators - 601
Flight Training operators - 210
RPT operators - 41
It is noted from the BITRE report the number of operators with a RPT services was 53 in 1984, peaked at 58 Operators in 1993, and since then has decreased to the dismal level of 28 operators providing RPT services in 2010. Since the last report by BITRE a further 7 of the operators providing services in the report have ceased operations all together and closed their doors.
In investigations of the source data it discovered that over this time frame there were only 8 years that showed a net increase year on year in the number of RPT operators and 16 years had a net decrease in the number of RPT operators servicing regional and remote parts of Australia.
We are not aware of any data that explains the reason why out of the 165 operators that have attempted to undertake RPT operations in regional and remote parts of Australia why only 21 remain. However, what is highlighted is that of the 21 remaining RPT operators in 2015;
only 3 have provided continuous RPT services for the entire period;
a further 5 have provided continuous RPT services since 2000; and
a further 6 have provided continuous RPT services since 2005.
So with the above report on RPT declines in my mind the biggest sector in regional Australia is the charter AOC holders. Like us they are mostly just small operators spread all over inland and remote Australia running only A few aircraft each servicing tourists and local communities and the biggest employer in Aviation in remote Austalia and if even half these companies shut down as well because they couldn't afford to meet compliance with Part 135 how many will this put out of work? Due to the reduced amount of operators how many training companies will shut the doors?
You may say that the Mums & Dad operations will be replaced by bigger operators taking up the gap left. However As proven by the decline in RPT this will never happen as the reason most of these small Mum and Dad companies survive is because they can operate with low overheads, most owners not even drawing a wage only living expenses. The only reason they stay in business is they love the business and its been their lifetimes work, if they weren't doing it, it would mean being unemployed as opportunities for work is very limited if all you have done all your life is fly and run a air charter company in remote Australia. It is just not viable for a big company to establish a base in an area like that that Relies on ad hock charters without regular work or contracts. Small GA is same as a small cottage industry Mum does the books, Dad looks after the flying and they may have a newbie and a senior line pilot that was last years newbie.
If Part 135 is going to straighten out charter why then has the biggest decline in the industry since 2009 been in RPT? Could it just be the cost of compliance with recent legislative changes that swept through RPT and miantiance in the past couple of years?
I thought Australia always loved the little guy having a go. That's all these guys and girls are trying to do. However from a lot of posts out there it seems that Australia has become a big fan of the big company the body corporate only making decisions for the bottom line without a sence of community or the communities they serve. I didn't realise that we as a nation had become so city centric. Brush the bush off if you wish but it still is the source of most of our export earnings. All these remote communities still need plumbers, electricians, tradesman and government officials. With sometimes a 10 hour drive or impassable roads in the wet these guys still rely on GA to get into remote communities I cannot see why we need to shift to a RPT standard to do this with only one or two passengers in a 210. GA is as safe if not safer than it has ever been. You always hear about the bad operators but you never hear about the good ones.
MS
My concern is the loss of charter operators. This is the target group for the new Part 135.
Charter operators are mainly small business less than 10 aircraft most are only running two or three small light aircraft and are by far these charter companies are the biggest employers of low time pilots in Australia.
The latest statistics showing the number of AOC holders by Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport, & Regional Economics (BITRE) Report 115 as of Febuary 2015 are as follows
Charter operators- 593
Flight Training operators - 188
RPT operators - 31
The figures for 2009 were
Charter operators - 601
Flight Training operators - 210
RPT operators - 41
It is noted from the BITRE report the number of operators with a RPT services was 53 in 1984, peaked at 58 Operators in 1993, and since then has decreased to the dismal level of 28 operators providing RPT services in 2010. Since the last report by BITRE a further 7 of the operators providing services in the report have ceased operations all together and closed their doors.
In investigations of the source data it discovered that over this time frame there were only 8 years that showed a net increase year on year in the number of RPT operators and 16 years had a net decrease in the number of RPT operators servicing regional and remote parts of Australia.
We are not aware of any data that explains the reason why out of the 165 operators that have attempted to undertake RPT operations in regional and remote parts of Australia why only 21 remain. However, what is highlighted is that of the 21 remaining RPT operators in 2015;
only 3 have provided continuous RPT services for the entire period;
a further 5 have provided continuous RPT services since 2000; and
a further 6 have provided continuous RPT services since 2005.
So with the above report on RPT declines in my mind the biggest sector in regional Australia is the charter AOC holders. Like us they are mostly just small operators spread all over inland and remote Australia running only A few aircraft each servicing tourists and local communities and the biggest employer in Aviation in remote Austalia and if even half these companies shut down as well because they couldn't afford to meet compliance with Part 135 how many will this put out of work? Due to the reduced amount of operators how many training companies will shut the doors?
You may say that the Mums & Dad operations will be replaced by bigger operators taking up the gap left. However As proven by the decline in RPT this will never happen as the reason most of these small Mum and Dad companies survive is because they can operate with low overheads, most owners not even drawing a wage only living expenses. The only reason they stay in business is they love the business and its been their lifetimes work, if they weren't doing it, it would mean being unemployed as opportunities for work is very limited if all you have done all your life is fly and run a air charter company in remote Australia. It is just not viable for a big company to establish a base in an area like that that Relies on ad hock charters without regular work or contracts. Small GA is same as a small cottage industry Mum does the books, Dad looks after the flying and they may have a newbie and a senior line pilot that was last years newbie.
If Part 135 is going to straighten out charter why then has the biggest decline in the industry since 2009 been in RPT? Could it just be the cost of compliance with recent legislative changes that swept through RPT and miantiance in the past couple of years?
I thought Australia always loved the little guy having a go. That's all these guys and girls are trying to do. However from a lot of posts out there it seems that Australia has become a big fan of the big company the body corporate only making decisions for the bottom line without a sence of community or the communities they serve. I didn't realise that we as a nation had become so city centric. Brush the bush off if you wish but it still is the source of most of our export earnings. All these remote communities still need plumbers, electricians, tradesman and government officials. With sometimes a 10 hour drive or impassable roads in the wet these guys still rely on GA to get into remote communities I cannot see why we need to shift to a RPT standard to do this with only one or two passengers in a 210. GA is as safe if not safer than it has ever been. You always hear about the bad operators but you never hear about the good ones.
MS
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There are some good experiences to be gained in GA, but it's not a prerequisite to a successful airline career. If you want to end up in the airlines, you'd be crazy not to take a cadetship.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
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my age (45) I wouldn't have the strength to lift the bags into the hold.
That would soon indicate to them just how much physical strength I still have. And my age listed to the left is correct!
And I would slam the door behind me on my way out.
