Logging Instrument Time At Night
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Logging Instrument Time At Night
Would anyone have an official reference or opinion of when Actual Instrument Time can be logged while under IFR at night? It seems there is a varied opinion on the matter. Just curious what everyone's interpolation is.
Cheers!
Cheers!
while under IFR at night?
Basically it is an honesty system because there is no means of audit of your logged instrument flight time. Some older pilots (they have nothing to prove) will only log hand flying on instruments while others are happy to log all time on the autopilot as instrument flight time even though they are eating their steak and eggs and reading the paper.
We all know that on a pitch black night even with no cloud at your level, you are well and truly flying on instruments. Legal or not, common sense tells you that you had better be competent on instruments or you will soon be dead.
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Thanks for your replies,
Perhaps I should have been more specific...in my career I have come across different opinions about logging Instrument Time at night. I once flew with a guy who logged all his time as IF and even recorded said hours in the flight crew records for all his crew
. Even with regs, company SOPs etc, people interpolate it differently. For example, (NZCAA)
Instrument flight means flight during which an aircraft is piloted solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points:
Now mixed interpolations I have come across are, at night you
- Log only time you have spent in IMC cloud as Instrument Time
- Log the whole flight as Instrument Time
- Log the whole portion apart from T/O and Landing
- Log the only the portion where visual clear external reference points cannot be identified or in cloud
- Log only which part you are flying an instrument procedure without the use of autopilot
There are many more..
What is the general consensus?
Cheers
Perhaps I should have been more specific...in my career I have come across different opinions about logging Instrument Time at night. I once flew with a guy who logged all his time as IF and even recorded said hours in the flight crew records for all his crew
. Even with regs, company SOPs etc, people interpolate it differently. For example, (NZCAA)Instrument flight means flight during which an aircraft is piloted solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points:
Now mixed interpolations I have come across are, at night you
- Log only time you have spent in IMC cloud as Instrument Time
- Log the whole flight as Instrument Time
- Log the whole portion apart from T/O and Landing
- Log the only the portion where visual clear external reference points cannot be identified or in cloud
- Log only which part you are flying an instrument procedure without the use of autopilot
There are many more..
What is the general consensus?
Cheers
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Having just got back from flying a C404 at night in sub-Sahara Africa for over 4hrs and No autopilot I was also wondering about the logging of IF time.
I couldn't see a thing (not even a road or car lights) but it just doesn't seem right to log 4hrs of IF time. To me it just seems once in the cruise and setup that the flying isn't too hard on concentration and scan rate can be a bit more relaxed.
I couldn't see a thing (not even a road or car lights) but it just doesn't seem right to log 4hrs of IF time. To me it just seems once in the cruise and setup that the flying isn't too hard on concentration and scan rate can be a bit more relaxed.
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navigating via external reference
To log IMC, you must be both:
- Manipulating the controls by reference to flight instruments, and
- Be without external reference points (that's the natural horizon to us non-lawyer types).
Here is the reference for Oz pilots:
61.105 Definition of instrument flight time for Part 61
A person’s instrument flight time is ... any time spent piloting an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external visual reference points in IMC or simulated IMC
And here it is for NZ pilots:
61.31 Pilot logbooks – crediting flight time
A pilot who manipulates the flight controls of an aircraft under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points is entitled to be credited with the instrument flight time...
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And here is a clarification from CASA's website:
All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.
In my airline it is normal procedure for pilot flying to just log 30 mins per sector, mainly because no-one really cares about this largely meaningless statistic, and it'll be reasonably close on average.
All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
d) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.
In my airline it is normal procedure for pilot flying to just log 30 mins per sector, mainly because no-one really cares about this largely meaningless statistic, and it'll be reasonably close on average.
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To log IMC, you must be both:
- Manipulating the controls by reference to flight instruments, and
- Be without external reference points (that's the natural horizon to us non-lawyer types).
Perhaps a tad misleading there, Oktas8. Using the word "manipulating" implies hand-flying, but there is no requirement, under the Australian regs to be hand-flying. The aircraft can be on autopilot.
And, there are other "external reference points" besides the natural horizon. For example, stars. If you have stars, or just ONE star in your view, even your peripheral vision, then you have external visual reference points, so cannot log the time as instrument time.
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Your NZCAA definition is incorrect.... PART 1 defines IMC as:
Instrument meteorological conditions means meteorological conditions expressed in terms of visibility, distance from cloud, and ceiling less than the minima specified for visual meteorological conditions:
So if you are not VMC you must be IMC and therefore you can log it as such in NZL at least.....
Instrument meteorological conditions means meteorological conditions expressed in terms of visibility, distance from cloud, and ceiling less than the minima specified for visual meteorological conditions:
So if you are not VMC you must be IMC and therefore you can log it as such in NZL at least.....
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Derfred, that is exactly the definition I was looking for and reflects my own personal interpolation. Thank you!
Craka, you are correct, however I was discussing the definition of Instrument Flight, not Instrument Meteorological Conditions. Both can be found in NZ CAA definitions part 1.
Craka, you are correct, however I was discussing the definition of Instrument Flight, not Instrument Meteorological Conditions. Both can be found in NZ CAA definitions part 1.
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Your NZCAA definition is incorrect
I just copied & pasted. Don't shoot the messenger...
If you have stars, or just ONE star in your view, even your peripheral vision, then you have external visual reference points, so cannot log the time as instrument time.
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Wow,
I would have thought that if you planned and Flew an IFR plan, You would log it as IFR.. And then also fill in the relevant Day or Night column for command or dual co-pilot.
I'll keep reading to be CASA'd
This bit....
really gets me.
So you have an IFR plan in, flying under IFR at an altitude that has you in and out of the cloud tops....you are constantly IMC VMC IMC VMC.
Are you supposed to run a stop watch and record your time in cloud.....5 seconds, 10 seconds, 30 seconds....5 seconds.
Sounds a lil Afro Circus
I would have thought that if you planned and Flew an IFR plan, You would log it as IFR.. And then also fill in the relevant Day or Night column for command or dual co-pilot.
I'll keep reading to be CASA'd
This bit....
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
So you have an IFR plan in, flying under IFR at an altitude that has you in and out of the cloud tops....you are constantly IMC VMC IMC VMC.
Are you supposed to run a stop watch and record your time in cloud.....5 seconds, 10 seconds, 30 seconds....5 seconds.
Sounds a lil Afro Circus
but it just doesn't seem right to log 4hrs of IF time
On the other hand if you were hand flying on instruments under the same conditions you probably would have prevented any excursions from the flight path. Then in my book you should log instrument flight time.
In my airline it is normal procedure for pilot flying to just log 30 mins per sector
"But the weather was clear all the way" said the astonished first officer. "It doesn't matter" said the captain. "I need the three hours for I/F currency"
Some would call that technical corruption. The same could be said for the highlighted quote, n'est ce pas?
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All airline pilots are corrupt in that sense.
Personally I try to be less corrupt: 0.1IF so I can log the approach that I really did fly on instruments, although it was VMC.
But still corrupt.
Definition of IF is not really applicable to high performance aircraft, as one cannot fly accurately without reference to instruments. But this particular law is probably the least-bad option available to regulators.
Personally I try to be less corrupt: 0.1IF so I can log the approach that I really did fly on instruments, although it was VMC.
But still corrupt.
Definition of IF is not really applicable to high performance aircraft, as one cannot fly accurately without reference to instruments. But this particular law is probably the least-bad option available to regulators.
