Mr Skidmore Letter on Part 61 - Don’t Mention the Cost!
Thread Starter
Below is a link to the document CASA used to get the Flight Crew Licencing rule changes through parliament. Read it and see if what we are paying now comes near what was forecast...
Start with an ATPL flight test - quoted as 2 hours @ $800 / hour.
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F20...9-358947eec395
Start with an ATPL flight test - quoted as 2 hours @ $800 / hour.
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F20...9-358947eec395
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Creamie, (POTY material by the way 
) as you well know, the problems lay in one particular area more than most. This also affects the standards folks and so on. the rot is uncontrolled.
I spent the day with a recent retiree of senior (very) ranks and even he describes JMAC's frustrations with the poor delivery of proper outcomes of the very department he was supposed to be running. I learned a few things that suggested he may well have been yet another victim of a systemic problem.
We all know where those problems breed……..like an infectious disease. A bit like Ebola for GA.
) as you well know, the problems lay in one particular area more than most. This also affects the standards folks and so on. the rot is uncontrolled.I spent the day with a recent retiree of senior (very) ranks and even he describes JMAC's frustrations with the poor delivery of proper outcomes of the very department he was supposed to be running. I learned a few things that suggested he may well have been yet another victim of a systemic problem.
We all know where those problems breed……..like an infectious disease. A bit like Ebola for GA.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As with most things political. 10 minutes to make the change and a life time to understand what the change will do. The engineering licence system is now in complete disarray and know one knows where it's headed. A complete disgrace.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can ANYONE in Australia do the ATPL flight test? Or do I have to go to the USA to get an Australian ATPL?
DB
DB
D. Bits,
Have you done your CASA approved Multi-Crew Cooperation Course (or whatever it is called), if the answer is yes, where did you find it?? A lot of people would like to know.
If not, the current apparent 100% lack of anybody to do an ATPL flight is not a problem.
Tootle pip!!
Have you done your CASA approved Multi-Crew Cooperation Course (or whatever it is called), if the answer is yes, where did you find it?? A lot of people would like to know.
If not, the current apparent 100% lack of anybody to do an ATPL flight is not a problem.
Tootle pip!!
Porter...didnt your Grandmother ever tell you...
Never denigrate or criticise those whose language and spelling is not as perfect like your own.
They may have a disability or may not have been as fortunate to have the same education as your (brilliant) self.
Never denigrate or criticise those whose language and spelling is not as perfect like your own.
They may have a disability or may not have been as fortunate to have the same education as your (brilliant) self.
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Santa Barbara
Posts: 912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
aroa, my grandmother died before she could teach me that lesson, (the other one was a drunk & didn't teach me anything).
And I wasn't denigrating him, I'm celebrating being able to understand his post.
I wouldn't call my education brilliant so I can't claim brilliance, I do however read a lot and try my best to continue my education, don't want to end up with Alzheimer's.
And I wasn't denigrating him, I'm celebrating being able to understand his post.
I wouldn't call my education brilliant so I can't claim brilliance, I do however read a lot and try my best to continue my education, don't want to end up with Alzheimer's.
Looks like you have a secret admirer Creampuff. Apparently, those so outraged by their treatment on Pprune, keep coming back for a look because they are bored with the sound of their own typewriter. I bit like the silly old people who are so outraged by Alan Jones that they have to keep turning the radio off.
Maybe Kharryon will dedicate one of his stupid shantys to you. Anyway thought you might like a laugh.
Shamelessly lifted form the UP boards.
There are some who can distil a sound argument into common sense. The inestimable "Creampuff" continues to provide a balanced point of view. Pearls cast before swine mostly, but I admire his wit, tenacity and logic. Shamelessly lifted form the UP boards, from the thread – HERE - :- Creamy – on song.
There are some who can distil a sound argument into common sense. The inestimable "Creampuff" continues to provide a balanced point of view. Pearls cast before swine mostly, but I admire his wit, tenacity and logic. Shamelessly lifted form the UP boards, from the thread – HERE - :- Creamy – on song.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Perpetually Commuting
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was thinking a number of different ways to obtain CASA ATPL and this seems to be the easiest way and the most cost effective way as well.
For those holding CASA CPL and 1500 hours total time:
1) Go to U.S, pass FAA IR written, get FAA ATPL concurrently with a a type rating such as B737CL or A320. This will get you a FAA ATP with instrument rating.
2) Go to NZ, pass NZ IR written and NZ ATPL written tests. Rent a Air NZ sim (B737 or A320) and get your ATPL checkride done. AFAIK, instrument checkride and ATPL checkride can be done concurrently.
3) After you obtain NZ ATPL, convert it to CASA ATPL by just paying a small fee.
For those holding ICAO ATPL and working as a F/O in overseas: (This is what I'm working on)
1) Get 1000 hours SIC time (post-ATPL issuing date) on ATPL issuing state reg aircrafts.
2) Go to NZ and get a ATPL checkride after passing NZ ATPL Air Law.
3) After you obtain NZ ATPL, convert it to CASA ATPL by just paying a small fee.
For those holding CASA CPL and 1500 hours total time:
1) Go to U.S, pass FAA IR written, get FAA ATPL concurrently with a a type rating such as B737CL or A320. This will get you a FAA ATP with instrument rating.
2) Go to NZ, pass NZ IR written and NZ ATPL written tests. Rent a Air NZ sim (B737 or A320) and get your ATPL checkride done. AFAIK, instrument checkride and ATPL checkride can be done concurrently.
3) After you obtain NZ ATPL, convert it to CASA ATPL by just paying a small fee.
For those holding ICAO ATPL and working as a F/O in overseas: (This is what I'm working on)
1) Get 1000 hours SIC time (post-ATPL issuing date) on ATPL issuing state reg aircrafts.
2) Go to NZ and get a ATPL checkride after passing NZ ATPL Air Law.
3) After you obtain NZ ATPL, convert it to CASA ATPL by just paying a small fee.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Enroute from Dagobah to Tatooine...!
Posts: 791
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
And every single one of those options costing WAAAYYY more than:
Especially after one factors in travel costs...
The cheapest of the options you have presented is for those working overseas as FO and who already hold an ICAO ATPL...
Besides, what kind of a country is it turning us into when we have to go offshore to gain a qualification...?!!
Glad this doesn't affect me but I feel sorry for anyone without a pre-Part 61 issued ATPL these days...
Start with an ATPL flight test - quoted as 2 hours @ $800 / hour.
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F20...9-358947eec395
http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F20...9-358947eec395
The cheapest of the options you have presented is for those working overseas as FO and who already hold an ICAO ATPL...
Besides, what kind of a country is it turning us into when we have to go offshore to gain a qualification...?!!
Glad this doesn't affect me but I feel sorry for anyone without a pre-Part 61 issued ATPL these days...
Last edited by Captain Nomad; 7th May 2015 at 01:30. Reason: Formatting
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Perpetually Commuting
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@Captain Nomad
I beg to differ. And realistically no one will be able to get sim rental cost less than 800 bucks an hour in Australia. One can also bypass this stupid MCC CASA is introducing.
MECIR training done on a piston twin engine aircraft is more expensive than getting a FAA ATP. That's why I said the first option is for those without MECIR. But granted, one might have to do multi-engine rating and instrument rating done in U.S prior to getting onto a sim. But still hell a lot cheaper. But for those doing his/her training through VET FEE-HELP, it ain't working for them.
B737CL type rating costs only around $8K in Miami. Last time I checked, it costs almost $20K to get MECIR in Australia. Schools charge $20K for 20 hours of flight time and 20 hours of sim time. I mean, seriously WTF?
All due respect, as of now, airlines in Australia should drop "ATPL" as a pre-requisite for FO jobs. They should drop the minimum to CASA CPL + MECIR + ATPL theories + MCC (preferably not) so that type rating checkride is to be done concurrently as ATPL checkride. This has been the norm in the states and it is fair for everybody.
I beg to differ. And realistically no one will be able to get sim rental cost less than 800 bucks an hour in Australia. One can also bypass this stupid MCC CASA is introducing.
MECIR training done on a piston twin engine aircraft is more expensive than getting a FAA ATP. That's why I said the first option is for those without MECIR. But granted, one might have to do multi-engine rating and instrument rating done in U.S prior to getting onto a sim. But still hell a lot cheaper. But for those doing his/her training through VET FEE-HELP, it ain't working for them.
B737CL type rating costs only around $8K in Miami. Last time I checked, it costs almost $20K to get MECIR in Australia. Schools charge $20K for 20 hours of flight time and 20 hours of sim time. I mean, seriously WTF?
All due respect, as of now, airlines in Australia should drop "ATPL" as a pre-requisite for FO jobs. They should drop the minimum to CASA CPL + MECIR + ATPL theories + MCC (preferably not) so that type rating checkride is to be done concurrently as ATPL checkride. This has been the norm in the states and it is fair for everybody.
Last edited by lee_apromise; 7th May 2015 at 02:10.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Abeam Alice Springs
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is the problem this crap reg is meant to fix ????
What and where are the SAFETY benefits??
Where is the cost/benefit analysis ??
The easiest way for CASA to fix this mess is to bin it and start again, using input from industry.
What and where are the SAFETY benefits??
Where is the cost/benefit analysis ??
The easiest way for CASA to fix this mess is to bin it and start again, using input from industry.
Arm out the Window - the point I am trying to make is that anything CASA sends out at the present time should be linked to what is the industry’s major concern and that is a one-way ratchet in the increase of costly regulations for aviation - especially when there is no safety reason for this one-way increase in cost.
Haven’t you noticed that Mr Skidmore is not game to actually mention this important fact? Why wouldn’t his letter say, “many in the industry appear to be concerned that Part 61 has increased costs when they were told this would not be the case. If you have any evidence of costs being increased, please advise.” Now that would be worthwhile! But it’s interesting, he doesn’t actually say this. Nor does anyone else within the “group think Iron Ring” actually get on top of this most important issue.
Then again, there is nothing with the Civil Aviation Act that says they have to look at cost, so I suppose they won’t.
Haven’t you noticed that Mr Skidmore is not game to actually mention this important fact? Why wouldn’t his letter say, “many in the industry appear to be concerned that Part 61 has increased costs when they were told this would not be the case. If you have any evidence of costs being increased, please advise.” Now that would be worthwhile! But it’s interesting, he doesn’t actually say this. Nor does anyone else within the “group think Iron Ring” actually get on top of this most important issue.
Then again, there is nothing with the Civil Aviation Act that says they have to look at cost, so I suppose they won’t.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sydney Harbour
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leadie the MCC seems to be problem #1. No one can do that either!
Looks like I'm heading to the USA to do their ATP CTP, then the Written Exam, then the flight test which is a 2 crew IF initial really! (In a Duchess if I want to!)
This is crazy!
Looks like I'm heading to the USA to do their ATP CTP, then the Written Exam, then the flight test which is a 2 crew IF initial really! (In a Duchess if I want to!)
This is crazy!
You would have to be thick not to understand that you could include that in the feedback...IMHO. Of course it is a great excuse for another whine.
A few threads could be merged here I reckon.
PS not defending part 61, how could you...but I think we all get it.
A few threads could be merged here I reckon.
PS not defending part 61, how could you...but I think we all get it.
I walked into a Government Office
I had to go into the Regulators office the other day. I had some licencing and transfer documentation I had to attend to.
I was greeted at the front and directed to my appointment exactly on time. The place had a bit of a buzz about it. Much like you might find in Private Enterprise. The forms were all so easy to fill out. I had a couple of potentially difficult questions. The two staff at the counter were obviously very knowledgeable about the rules and regulations and addressed them succinctly. Very obliging as well. The whole well informed, clearly understood requirements made such a good impression on me. As I exited the building after my seamless experience somewhat ahead of schedule, I turned and went back in side. It was quicker, less painful than I anticipated, and somewhat cheaper than I feared. I thought I must pass on my sincere appreciation. I go in there regularly, and it always operates in such a manner. The staff were very happy to receive my positive feedback. In fact they had the Area Manager in the building and I got the opportunity to thank him, and in fact I followed the whole process up with a letter. How could they all be so happy and efficient. Constantly dealing with licences, safety, rules, regulations, maintenance etc. Yuck!
Anyway I am so sorry to tie up an Aviation forum but I just wanted to pass on my congratulations, thanks and sincere respect to VICROADS. Cheers
I was greeted at the front and directed to my appointment exactly on time. The place had a bit of a buzz about it. Much like you might find in Private Enterprise. The forms were all so easy to fill out. I had a couple of potentially difficult questions. The two staff at the counter were obviously very knowledgeable about the rules and regulations and addressed them succinctly. Very obliging as well. The whole well informed, clearly understood requirements made such a good impression on me. As I exited the building after my seamless experience somewhat ahead of schedule, I turned and went back in side. It was quicker, less painful than I anticipated, and somewhat cheaper than I feared. I thought I must pass on my sincere appreciation. I go in there regularly, and it always operates in such a manner. The staff were very happy to receive my positive feedback. In fact they had the Area Manager in the building and I got the opportunity to thank him, and in fact I followed the whole process up with a letter. How could they all be so happy and efficient. Constantly dealing with licences, safety, rules, regulations, maintenance etc. Yuck!
Anyway I am so sorry to tie up an Aviation forum but I just wanted to pass on my congratulations, thanks and sincere respect to VICROADS. Cheers
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 71
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
like all of us in aviation I started out responding to the NPRM's and found consistently that all suggestions were ignored totally and CAsA just went along doing whatever they wanted.
so about 10 years or so ago I decided to totally ignore all suggestions demands and legislation coming out of CAsA.
I have in the last decade or so done all the maintenance on my own aircraft and gone out and flown regularly.
I have totally ignored all CAsA requirements.
was I unsafe? never.
my aircraft is now a vintage homebuilt, it first flew in 1985, it is in better condition now than when I first flew it.
it cruises 15 knots faster. the engine runs absolutely to the numbers and I no longer pollute the air with lead residues.
When I got Skidmore's letter I was tempted to give an honest response.
Why bother?
The system for the past 15 years has been going so far off the rails that it is pointless even bothering to comment.
as just one example the much vaunted biennial flight review has now caused 6 deaths that I would wager would not have occurred otherwise.
The CAsA system is totally fcuked.
The things that really would improve safety haven't a hope of being introduced by these clueless incompetents.
They are so engrossed by their ex RAAF memories that they will never listen to common sense.
So we are stuck with their system if we care to be legal and it doesn't work.
All CAsA ordained maintenance ever does is see to a slow inexorable decline in the airworthiness of aircraft maintained under the system.
In terms of flying competence the new approach is one of fear uncertainty and doubt where before a pilot used to develop a sense of mastery of the challenges and some competent risk evaluation skills.
Sorry Skidmore but the best thing you could do with CAsA is shut it down completely. it does not create a safe environment and it does not engender competence.
so about 10 years or so ago I decided to totally ignore all suggestions demands and legislation coming out of CAsA.
I have in the last decade or so done all the maintenance on my own aircraft and gone out and flown regularly.
I have totally ignored all CAsA requirements.
was I unsafe? never.
my aircraft is now a vintage homebuilt, it first flew in 1985, it is in better condition now than when I first flew it.
it cruises 15 knots faster. the engine runs absolutely to the numbers and I no longer pollute the air with lead residues.
When I got Skidmore's letter I was tempted to give an honest response.
Why bother?
The system for the past 15 years has been going so far off the rails that it is pointless even bothering to comment.
as just one example the much vaunted biennial flight review has now caused 6 deaths that I would wager would not have occurred otherwise.
The CAsA system is totally fcuked.
The things that really would improve safety haven't a hope of being introduced by these clueless incompetents.
They are so engrossed by their ex RAAF memories that they will never listen to common sense.
So we are stuck with their system if we care to be legal and it doesn't work.
All CAsA ordained maintenance ever does is see to a slow inexorable decline in the airworthiness of aircraft maintained under the system.
In terms of flying competence the new approach is one of fear uncertainty and doubt where before a pilot used to develop a sense of mastery of the challenges and some competent risk evaluation skills.
Sorry Skidmore but the best thing you could do with CAsA is shut it down completely. it does not create a safe environment and it does not engender competence.
Arm out the Window - the point I am trying to make is that anything CASA sends out at the present time should be linked to what is the industry’s major concern and that is a one-way ratchet in the increase of costly regulations for aviation - especially when there is no safety reason for this one-way increase in cost.
Still, the letter from Skidmore basically says 'if there's anything you think is wrong with what the new regs, tell us', which to me clearly doesn't need a specific mention of the cost factor. If he said in Colonel Klink style 'Dooooon't mention ze cost!' then that would be a different story!