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Old 10th May 2015, 08:14
  #81 (permalink)  
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Jabawoky, if you are suggesting ignore the aircraft flight manual, in this case, what other parts of the manual should we ignore? Procedures are everything in this industry.

Furthermore, if you have a degree in engineering, industrial chemistry, tell Pratt, Textron, or Continental they are wrong. Their engineers would love to hear from you.

If you are not an expert, why comment at all. Hell, I don't surf the dentistry forum that that very reason.
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Old 10th May 2015, 09:31
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When you set the mixture by reference to the EGT numbers in the "manual" you do, of course, realise that you really have no idea where, in fact, the EGT for each cylinder is set, don't you?

If you really believe that the settings in the "manual" are the product of deep engineering analysis and data showing that those numbers are the only settings at which the EGT may safely be set, surely you cannot be safe unless you're sure that every cylinder on the engines you operate are set precisely to the numbers specified in the "manual".

How do you manage to be the first person in history to ensure that each cylinder on the piston engine you are running is set precisely to the required temperature by reference to peak?

Last edited by Creampuff; 10th May 2015 at 09:54.
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Old 10th May 2015, 10:38
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Cream puff, like Jabawocky, show me your credentials, qualifications and expertise in this area, and I will shut up. I am no engineer, scientist, and not highly educated, so can only rely on the flight manual for guidance.
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Old 10th May 2015, 13:22
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I suspect that all this boils down to a debate between those that use engine monitors v those that don't. One doesn't need to be highly educated to understand the information that an engine monitor provides. Only a bit of simple mathematics and common sense is required.

tio540, I encourage you to go for a flight with someone who uses a monitor and has done an APS course. And for that person to explain all the 'black magic' involved. You may have a change of opinion running your engine then.
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Old 10th May 2015, 14:06
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You may have a change of opinion running your engine then.
Or maybe you will just run it how your boss wants you to run it. Which is what VH-BKD was probably doing.

Enough of engine management talk maybe?
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Old 10th May 2015, 14:32
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That's all fine and well, but the APS course is not even accredited by the manufacturer, and probably not endorsed by the regulator. Beware of snake oil salesman.
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Old 10th May 2015, 22:30
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rely on the flight manual for guidance.


Unbeliever! The manual is the Bible!

Thou shalt set the EGT needle to the divine number and, yea and verily, the EGT for each cylinder shall be so and thine engine shall be safe. Any other number shall be heresy and unsafe!

Thou shalt not suggest that 25 degrees C ROP or its F equivalent was a number chosen by the manufacturers' marketing department, because that number just about coincides with peak power and the fastest the aircraft will cruise, back in an era when competition between each new model put out by manufacturers was won and lost on a couple of knots. Thou shalt not suggest that the objective data show that setting mixture to 25 degrees C ROP is about the worst place for your engine, because that EGT just about coincides with the hottest CHT.

Give 'er a thrashing at 25 C ROP - that'll muster the hottest CHT you can - and have faith in the manual.
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Old 10th May 2015, 22:33
  #88 (permalink)  
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Time to slow down on the desperation tactics. Yes I am an engineer who studied mechanical of all things although these days it is mostly accounting I do

Have I had very close working association with the G100UL unleaded avgas project? Yes. Do I also know that the APS class is based on data and facts from P&W, CW and the teachings of Taylor etc…..YES. Is George Braly and the Carl Goulet Memorial engine test facility not the best example of piston aero engine test cells in the world today? YES (and even the FAA learn from them).

This is not a pissing contest of credentials, if you want that jump on a plane fly to Ada OK and go see George for a day. If you cope with that (and most can't) then you will have done well.

When I get a moment, like about an hour, I will respond to all the posts here accurately. This will be in a factual and scientific manner that is not opinion but data backed, for your education and anyone else who comes along later.

Just for a moment, contemplate this……when you read a POH and there are charts and data provided showing the full spectrum of engine management on one page and then you read on and there is some poorly worded single cookbook recipe like that quoted by yourself, and they are completely at odds with each other…….what do you ? You can't do both at the same time can you?

So what happens is the vast majority of instructors and hence pilots who are not able to decipher the data, they gravitate to the written explanation trusting that reflects the data. The problem is that is sometimes written by the work experience kid in marketing (we had one in an APS class who stood up and admitted his words in a POH-brave man). So you the pilot ignores the correct data lovingly prepared by the engineers, and favour the BS on the next page.

This is not uncommon, we use many examples in the class manual.

By the way, APS does not need any accreditation, it stands on its own merits and besides there would need to be a pretty well qualified accreditation team……and so far I doubt there are any more qualified in the piston aero engine community than George Braly himself.

Lycoming have sent folk, and even been challenged to provide data that proves anything we teach is wrong, Walter even offered USD$1K for anything they had…..they said there is nothing that refutes the data.

What about TCM you say? Well the very first class I taught was a few years ago in Oklahoma, and we had a senior guy from TCM there, his name is Bill Ross, (nice guy too) he went back to the factory on and declared their engineers were all going to take the class. So for the last several classes there have been 4-6 in attendance. Heck last year at Oshkosh, Bill Ross in one of his seminars was actually promoting to their customers to take the class. I think that speaks enough.

I will find some time out of my "engineering day" coz thats what I do…..and try to deal with the previous posts. Hang in there.
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