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Logging of flight simulator time in Grand Total Hours. l

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Logging of flight simulator time in Grand Total Hours. l

Old 6th Apr 2015, 12:45
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Logging of flight simulator time in Grand Total Hours. l

Logging of full flight simulator time. Australian log books pages are known as Flight Record. Of the several columns available, one is headed Instrument. Under the Instrument heading are sub-divisions Simulator, Approaches and Flight.

My understanding of logging of full flight simulator time is that regardless of the nature of that simulator training (dual as in type rating training or recurrent or IPC) it is logged under the column marked Simulator and not included in the Grand Total flying hours. .

Occasionally one sees log books where the pilot also logs that simulator time as either dual, command or copilot as if the flying was in the real aircraft. These are then included in the flight record as true flight time and added to the total aeronautical experience or grand total.

While I see no problem in annotating the simulator time under the Dual/Command/Copilot columns as well as in the Simulator column, I firmly believe these times should not be included in the Total Aeronautical Experience or Grand Total flying hours.

I have searched Part 61 to see if logging of flight simulator or even FTD time is any different to pre-Part 61 implementation and found no mention of a new interpretation.

The reality is simulator flying is not flight time and IMHO should not be logged as such in the total columns at the bottom of each page of a pilots log book. In fact it creates a false impression of the pilot's flying experience.

Overseas regulatory authorities often have different rules or interpretations with regard to logging of simulator or FTD time. As do individual third party providers tasked with type rating training. This adds to the confusion when pilots from these countries present their log books to ATO's or CASA FOI for inspection.

It gets further complicated when CASA FCL staff seem to happily accept overseas claimed flight time without looking too closely at purported flight time logging practices. For example, a log book showing 370 hours total time of which 240 hours are instrument flight time.... Or where a flight under IFR is logged totally as instrument flight time - regardless of weather conditions.

Your comments would be appreciated; preferably with documentary references.

Last edited by Centaurus; 6th Apr 2015 at 12:58.
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Old 6th Apr 2015, 19:24
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This has been covered in depth many times before.
Use the SEARCH function top right!

Last edited by Chocks Away; 7th Apr 2015 at 21:18.
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 00:35
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I was told by an old timer to log airline sim time as flight time.

His argument was that they were 'zero flight time' sims & you could do your entire endorsement in them & then go & fly the jet in command straight away (if you could get someone to let you loose on their plane!). Therefore the time was considered the same as time in the actual aircraft.

Who knows?
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 03:30
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So, taking that argument to a ridiculous conclusion we could have an applicant with 1500 hours of 'zero flight time' in simulators claiming the requisite experience for an ATPL, or 5000 such hours putting his hand up for a DEC.

I always took a very jaundiced view of applicants who disguised their real experience by claiming total hours in type, or simulator hours, dressed up to look like command when all they had was either a bare endorsement or some First Officer experience. In fact when my bullshit meter detected this nonsense, the application would go straight to the round file.

As real as simulators are, it is usual for certain liberties to be taken during their use. Unless it is an advanced LOFT scenario, often there will be no traffic, little ATC communication, no real passengers or company issues and frequent use of position freezes, resets etc to optimise training time. Sim time is not flight time.
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 07:43
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Sim time is not flight time.
I agree.
Is it "time on type"?
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 07:50
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I guess it is SIMULATOR time on type!
If the applicant put on his cv that he was Type Rated B737 with 20 hours (simulator) time on type I would prefer that honesty to someone simply saying 20 hours B737 and leaving me to deduce whether he was trying to con me into believing he had actually operated the real aeroplane.
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 08:14
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On the other hand you could argue that an hour in a Simulator is more valuable than a typical hour in an Aircraft, especially if you're talking long haul as the time spent in the Sim would very rarely be wasted on just sitting there in the cruise and spent more on training for the more crucial events. In other words compare an 8hour flight with one take off and one landing on a normal day as opposed to 8hours spend in a Sim training for specific situations whether they be Takeoff and Landings, Instrument Procedures, Emergency Procedures etc...etc... Which do you think would be more valuable at the beginning?

Hours aren't just Hours, some are worth more than others. Personally I don't include Sim time in my Grand Total, but I've never used Full Motion Sims before either...
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 08:18
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Zero time sim is a zero time sim..1 to 1..if you can get a type rating in it then you can log it
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 08:19
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Folks,
Simulator time should always be logged as sim. time, it is not flight time. Full stop!
Part 61 has not changed this.

The fact that some training organisation have individual "approvals" to vary the recording of training time contrary to ICAO Annex 1, or individual NAAs regulations, does not change that basic recording.

The above. para referrers to certain NAA (not FAA) allowing what we would regard as non-normal logging of "flight time", such as allowing certain flight time to be logged as in-command (not AICUS) when an instructor is aboard. These same NAA "allow", in the case of certain contract flying schools, to log sim. time as instrument flight time, for the purpose of issuing a CPL/IR.

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Old 7th Apr 2015, 09:24
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The definitions in part 61 define simulator time as counting toward total aeronautical experience. The 'flying time' definition only refers to aircraft, not simulators. I've adjusted my logbook accordingly and my total aeronautical experience is now obviously greater than flying hours due to a bunch of sim flying. I'm not as smart as LeadSled but the definitions seem pretty clear cut to me.

BTW, I'm talking about a pilot operating the controls in a sim, not simulator instructor hours.
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 10:02
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Have a look at this link:

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Pilot Log Books

Takes you to a page titled Pilot Log Books—General Guidance and crediting of flight time.
Specifically, there is a section titled Flight Simulator or Synthetic Trainer Time which says (my bolding):
Practice in an approved simulator or trainer may be recorded in the section provided at the rear of the log book. The instrument flight element of the simulator time may be transferred to the 'Ground' column of the Instrument Flight section of the flight record.
If a Flight Simulator or Synthetic Trainer Practice section is not available in the log book, the details may be entered chronologically in the flight record, and the Instrument flight element transferred to a suitably titled column.
In older log books, the 'Ground Training' or 'Simulator' column of the Instrument section of the flight record may be used for 'Ground' entries.
There’s another section titled Grand Total Flying Hours which says:
Grand Total Flying Hours is calculated by adding all numbered columns in the flight record, plus ICUS, and recording the total at the bottom of the page.
Therefore my take is that simulator time does not contribute to grand total flying hours.
Of note, the RAAF has recently joined the 21st century and changed its flying test report form to more clearly detail experience gained in simulators.
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 10:34
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With all due respect that's a pretty old CASA webpage and doesn't match Part 61. Perhaps CASA need to pull that page down.
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 10:35
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I have read Part 61 where it states simulator time is counted as total aeronautical experience. But the whole sad thing about the this logging of simulator hours as hidden flight hours, is the potential for wholesale degrading of a pilots real flying experience.

I found an old 1950's DCA log book. The Instructions first page states:

Time recorded in the column "Ground Training" will be that time which is spent in Link Trainers or other approved ground training devices for instrument flying.

Total aeronautical Experience, at the foot of the page, is to be compiled as follows:-

Pilot in command - Total time so flown.
Dual Instruction - Total time so flown.
Co-Pilot - 50% of time so flown.
This total shall therefore equal the sum of columns 1,2,3,4,5,6,9 and 10 plus fifty percent of the individual totals for columns 7 and 8. (7 and 8 are copilot times Night and day)

Instrument Flight Time is time spent at the controls while in flight under actual or properly simulated instrument flight conditions and will be recorded in the "In-Flight" column, as well as being included in the appropriate column 1 to 10.

Interestingly, RAAF Pilot Log Books of that era also gave instructions for the logging of instrument flight time which was either simulated in flight or actual instrument flying in flight. "Actual" being in cloud. However a further column was required to be drawn in which was headed Link Trainer. Log books were required to be signed monthly by the flight commander and woe betide if a pilot made mistakes in his log book.

All this shows that 70 plus years of historical logging of hours in DCA and RAAF log books and which has stood the test of time, has now been plundered by CASA via Part 61 and we now see the ridiculous situation where ground training time (simulator or approved FTD) is legally logged as total aeronautical flying experience.

What next? Sweeping the hangar floor time to be included as part of total aeronautical experience
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 15:52
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Centaurus,
I must have a close read of Annex.1, to see if it has changed since last time I looked, to allow sim. time in the total flight time totals, otherwise I hope Australia has filed a difference with ICAO.
As for Part 61 + MOS, the whole bleeding thing is a disaster, operationally and as for the cost increases, it is frightening --- and we haven't got to Part 121/135 yet.
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 21:31
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Simulator time is for fixed based and/or non approved aero club training devices. That column is to satisfy the recency clause where you can get some of your IFR time in a fixed base sim
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 22:05
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I log my time in the sim as total flight time.....

When youre an Aussie with a flying history on different licences, for different airlines, in different parts of the world......every airline has a different opinion...and every regulatory authority has a different opinion.


The 16-20hrs I spend in the sim each year is not going to make a difference on the 800-900hrs I do annually.

I log my time in the sim not to "embellish" my experience......but because it is easier for me to add up all the columns in my logbook.



Eternity.
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Old 7th Apr 2015, 23:25
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I agree with Centaurus. You can count simulator time as Total Aeronautical Experience, but IMO you shouldn't.

(That is, CASA should not have made the change. Of course individuals are free to use the law to inflate their CVs - it's perfectly legitimate to do so.)

Some might say that TAE is now a meaningless concept. However, most employers ask for a breakdown of hours in an application; "real" experience will therefore be discovered one way or another.

Personally, I don't log simulator time at all. I have enough hours that I don't need the few extra to make myself more employable, and it means I spend just a little bit less time interacting with CASA garbage legalese. Win-win!
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Old 8th Apr 2015, 05:24
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Simulator time is for fixed based and/or non approved aero club training devices. That column is to satisfy the recency clause where you can get some of your IFR time in a fixed base sim
Don't confuse synthetic training found in aero clubs with 'simulators'.
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Old 8th Apr 2015, 09:56
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Flight time — aeroplanes.
The total time from the moment an aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.
Note.Flight time as here defined is synonymous with the term “block to block” time or “chock to chock” time in general usage which is measured from the time an aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off until it finally stops at the end of the flight.

Flight time — helicopters.
The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.

Instrument flight time.
Time during which a pilot is piloting an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points.

Instrument ground time.
Time during which a pilot is practising, on the ground, simulated instrument flight in a flight simulation training device approved by the Licensing Authority.

Instrument time.
Instrument flight time or instrument ground time.

Pilot-in-command.
The pilot designated by the operator, or in the case of general aviation, the owner, as being in command and charged with the safe conduct of a flight.

Pilot-in-command under supervision.
Co-pilot performing, under the supervision of the pilot-in-command, the duties and functions of a pilot-in-command, in accordance with a method of supervision acceptable to the Licensing Authority.

Solo flight time.
Flight time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of an aircraft.



2.1.9 Crediting of flight time

2.1.9.1 A student pilot or the holder of a pilot licence shall be entitled to be credited in full with all solo, dual instruction and pilot-in-command flight time towards the total flight time required for the initial issue of a pilot licence or the issue of a higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.9.2 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot at a pilot station of an aircraft certificated for operation by a single pilot but required by a Contracting State to be operated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the co-pilot flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence. The Contracting State may authorize that flight time be credited in full towards the total flight time required if the aircraft is equipped to be operated by a co-pilot and the aircraft is operated in a multi-crew operation.

2.1.9.3 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as co-pilot at a pilot station of an aircraft certificated to be operated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited in full with this flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.9.4 The holder of a pilot licence, when acting as pilot-in-command under supervision, shall be entitled to be credited in full with this flight time towards the total flight time required for a higher grade of pilot licence.

2.1.10 Limitation of privileges of pilots who have attained their 60th birthday
and curtailment of privileges of pilots who have attained their 65th birthday

A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot, their 65th birthday.

Note.— Attention is drawn to 1.2.5.2.3 on the validity period of Medical Assessments for pilots over the age of 60 who are engaged in commercial air transport operations.
Folks,
An extract from ICAO Annex 1, current to amendment 172, of 13 November 2014.
As far as I can determine, there is no provision for including simulator time in flight time.

Don't confuse synthetic training found in aero clubs with 'simulators'.
It all depends on what CASA has approved for what, and I am continually amazed at what CASA approves for what: ie: something little better than a desktop device, with software not within a bull's roar of Microsoft Flight Sim 10, for "training and checking" on a Chieftain, including asymmetric handling.
In short, what CASA will "approve" as Flight Simulator Training Device, FSTD, under CASR 60, makes a complete joke of simulator training standards.

Tootle pip!!
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Old 8th Apr 2015, 22:21
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I agree with Centaurus. You can count simulator time as Total Aeronautical Experience, but IMO you shouldn't.
Despite personal views, Part 61 does define what is now required fairly explicitly. Whilst you may not want to log your Sim time, Octa's, and count it as Aeronautical Experience, you need to now as a pilot must keep a logbook in accordance with the regulations (of Part 61). By "choosing" not to, you are not keeping a compliant logbook.

Aeronautical experience has never had any real meaning anyway, Flight time and PIC are what matter and clearly indicate a person's experience.
The real question is how do you treat Pre Sep 1st co-pilot time now........or for that matter pre Sep 1st sim
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