What Happened to Lower Class E?

[Jabawocky]

Dick, with all due respect, we can't get comms on the ground let alone SSR or ADSB close to the ground in some major ports. Fix that and hey presto.

If I taxi at Bundy, ATC have my code and details all ready to go, before I even call them. Why? Because the controller can see me doing 8 knots on the apron and when I call him/her, they can hear me loud and clear.

Travel a little bit down the coast towards Brisbane and the exact opposite is true, with no surveillance under 3-4000 feet. And this is with the latest Garmin goodies too.

So how would I blast out of YHBA or dozens of other ports in and around the J curve with a scenario like that? Or do you propose we self separate in E prior to getting a clearance for the airspace we are already in?

And Dick, no need to lecture me on the USA......I am seriously thinking of moving there, should have done it when the dollar was stronger. Their systems and FAA beat our lot hands down every day. You can read my rankings about closing CASA and ATSB and subcontracting to the Kiwis and NTSB. I need no convincing. But given what we have to work with here, and the damned strict liability etc you will not easily follow the Americans.

Several mates of mine are ATCs and some participate or watch these threads, they would love to be able to provide the service but to do that requires a lot more than some coloured lines on a chart. That needs fixing first.

I look forward to a considered reply.

[Dick Smith]

I bet for the $14m price of the fire station plus it's ongoing annual running costs we could have got an upgraded ATC service at Ballina and probably a few other places as well.

In other countries they upgrade the airspace first before putting in RFFS. That is they try and prevent the accident in the first place. Pretty logical to me.

I upgraded the tower establishment criteria years ago but no one has updated the RFFS establishment criteria.

Until that happens large amounts of safety resources will be mis-allocated.

All the best for Christmas and the new year to everyone.

[Jabawocky]

I bet for the $14m price of the fire station plus it's ongoing annual running costs we could have got an upgraded ATC service at Ballina and probably a few other places as well. AGREED

In other countries they upgrade the airspace first before putting in RFFS. That is they try and prevent the accident in the first place. Pretty logical to me.SOUNDS FAIR

I upgraded the tower establishment criteria years ago but no one has updated the RFFS establishment criteria. OK, but thats not about E

Until that happens large amounts of safety resources will be mis-allocated. YEP

All the best for Christmas and the new year to everyone. We all agree here too!

So how about the ability to provide the E if that is what you want. It will cost a lot more than $14M but I agree it would be better bang for buck but it needs to be done in its entirety.

[CaptainMidnight]

There is no money for any of this.
There is not enough controllers for any of this.
There isn't enough consoles.

More importantly CASA the airspace regulator hasn't directed that low level Class E be implemented (nor low level surveillance for that matter) because as yet they haven't deemed it necessary.

It's not an Airservices decision to introduce any airspace. They have to present a case to CASA for any amendments to airspace.

Whether or not Airservices has the staff, consoles or infrastructure is irrelevant if CASA deems something is required. They are factors that may delay implementation, but not reasons to not comply with a directive.

[Jabawocky]

And how is that "non USA standard" Approach airspace working in Tasmania?

That is a hybrid crossbreed balls up of a deal, and hardly a USA style outcome.

[Dick Smith]

Jaba. Can you explain with more detail. I have not seen US style NAS in Tasmania or anywhere in Australia.

Can you advise if the multilateration system in Tasmania is being used in full?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Would it surprise anyone if I say that to fit out Ballina with coms and ADS-B would cost less than a tenth of a new firestation?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

In other countries they upgrade the airspace first before putting in RFFS.

In other countries they make the airport, so indirectly the operators, pay for the Fire Service. Imagine the landing fees if Ballina was paying for it.

That is they try and prevent the accident in the first place

Also, if the no. and type of movements or passengers dictate establishment of a RFFS, then so be it. The chance of a mid-air 5-10 miles away from the drome is not why they are there. They probably wouldn't even respond. Accidents in general airspace and at an airport are two different arguments.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

The question that should be asked is why does Airservices still do ARFFS?

[Capn Bloggs]

I have not seen US style NAS in Tasmania or anywhere in Australia.

Open your eyes, Dick. It was there, NAS in all it's glory, until that Tobago almost collided with the Virgin 737. Then the NAS got turfed. As it should have been, or never introduced in the first place.

[Jabawocky]

Dick,

If you profess to NOT know, which I suspect is NOT the case, do like the rest of us who are REALLY interested in understanding the real deal. Pick up the phone, ring AsA in Canberra, ask for a briefing and or/schedule a visit to the operational environment.

But don't forget, the guys and girls in ML Centre and the Tassie Towers are flat out with peak season traffic this time of year, refusal cannot be grounds for you to pretend to be shut out and/or offended!

And by the way, what do I do when launching into IMC at Hervey Bay with no clearance? And then have a one in one out?

Merry Christmas to you and all who live and play in the game of life and aviation.

[Dick Smith]

I guess same as in the USA Are you suggesting our Atc separation standards are unnecessarily onerous ? Or our imc self separation standards are not safe?

It's all about resisting change!

[Dick Smith]

And I have not been able to gain any factual information on the multilateration in Tasmania. Can someone else explain seeing Jaba won't

[triadic]

More importantly CASA the airspace regulator hasn't directed that low level Class E be implemented (nor low level surveillance for that matter) because as yet they haven't deemed it necessary.

There is not much hope with any progress on Class E as CASA don't even understand Class G ! They certainly don't appreciate established culture and change, which is what has to be managed if there is to be any change at all. If they did, maybe we might be able to turn a page in this saga! Not holding my breath.

Merry Christmas

[Jabawocky]

Why do you say I won't?

That is BS..... Nobody ever asked.......more the point, I am not an expert on that topic.

Ask me about piston engine management, not ATC management.

A few years ago you were the expert, even discrediting me on ABC radio (who the heck was I ) to bully your way with the media. Many an ATC heard it. They knew the answer then, and what happened? They loved every minute, they called me.

Dick, get it right and you get support, get it wrong and it goes badd.

[Dick Smith]

Jabs. Sorry if I offended you on ABC radio years ago . I have no idea what you are referring to. Now I can see why you have your toga in a knot!

Why don't you give me a ring some time. At least you can communicate your distress rather than let it fester.

Then we can work together in introducing some necessary improvements.

[Jabawocky]

No offence taken, you were correct, I am a nobody in aviation airspace management, but really, you have the ability to influence outcomes, working against the folk who do the job day in and day out just does not make sense.

It is not their resistance to change for good, it is resistance to being given a set of rules or procedures without the tools to make it work.

Both the concepts of low level E and the Tassie approach service are clear examples of both.