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What Happened to Lower Class E?

Old 20th Dec 2014, 00:36
  #41 (permalink)  
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Le P. You state;

There's a bigger game afoot at present, namely oneSKY/CMATS, so I doubt calls for major changes, unless they were safety critical in a major way (and what you want isn't), will gain any traction, regardless of the merits.


Are you saying the the OneSky tender is for the present airspace system and will not allow IFR terminal services to be upgraded to the U.S. level of safety?
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 01:46
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Dick,

In the US they regulate for safety, which explains their superior safety standards.

In Europe they have outcome based regulation. They just can't figure out what outcome they want to achieve.

In Australia we have liability avoidance based regulation.

Thousands of pages and growing every day.

They absolve government of any liability for anything by being a major liability to an industry that must somehow comply with them.

Will our liability avoidance aviation regulations grow bigger than our taxation regulations?
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 05:41
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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No Dick, oneSKY/CMATS is an ATC system not an airspace model - you could use whatever airspace model you want in it. The system is unaware of airspace classifications.

What I'm saying is TAAATS needs replacing sooner rather than later so from a safety perspective that must be the main organisational imperative and as such that's where all the resources will be concentrated. TAAATS starting to fall apart due to age related hardware failure has far bigger safety implications than not providing the service you're wanting.

Seriously, we're going to struggle with staffing just to get the new system in as it is without adding further complications. We don't have the staff or consoles in the current system so nothing is going to happen in TAAATS. I have no idea what the intention is post TAAATS.

Many of us are 50+ so retirement will be an option in the not too distant future (if it already isn't) and we'll need replacing too. That's a lot of new controllers to train just to keep position. For better or worse ATC requires a skill set that is far from common so that will be a struggle.

Last edited by le Pingouin; 20th Dec 2014 at 05:47. Reason: system is *un*aware
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 05:50
  #44 (permalink)  
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Are you saying that your organisation is not being competently led ?

Why would that be?

Have you ever applied for a management position?
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 06:18
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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We're still recovering from the damage inflicted by the previous incumbent. I'm not the type they're looking for - I'm too outspoken.
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 10:02
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe lower class E bought a cheap ticket and is on the piss in Bali?
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 10:55
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Dick, the current management (Mr Hood) is actually a good guy. The problem is if you want what you want, it takes infrastructure and people. Give Mr Hood both of those, and the problem is solved.

Dont blame Mr Hood.

It is really that simple.

If you get that………..go fix it. For all our sakes.

Otherwise let the ASA work with what the CASA (sub optimal) and the government (also sub optimal despite being netter than the others) have given them.

Cheers,

DB
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 19:53
  #48 (permalink)  
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Not blaming anyone. Just asking logical questions.

I didn't realise he was the CEO.
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 23:01
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He isn't - he's the EGM ATC.

In any case as you are well aware, its not an Airservices decision what airspace class should be where. They are simply the ATSP/ANSP.

CASA is the airspace regulator, so it is their decision. If they don't consider Class E is warranted/justified down to 700 AGL or lowered anywhere else below what it currently is, its their decision.

Airservices has to abide with CASA's decisions, and put in TWRs, RFF and staffing accordingly.

Perhaps you should be talking to their Office of Airspace Regulation -
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 23:40
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Dick,
As Jaba stated, I flew in this lowered Class E from the day it opened until I departed for newer pastures.

I'll state some points:
  • Sure it was nice having an ATC to give you all that info, but at the end of the day, it was still "Cleared to leave controlled area via the RNAV" or whatever. What's the point in having an ATC guy 'control' you if the VFR who's only monitoring the CTAF (because they only have one working radio, or they're still tuned to Centre) is still going to do whatever he/she wants.
  • The hours that this lowered Class E operated was almost pointless. I asked the guy one night on a weekend if they controlled many aircraft over the weekend. "No, normally just you guys". So that might be 1 movement in the entire night.
  • Yes I get that you're talking about 24/7 control over uncontrolled aerodromes like Ballina, but I still don't see the point one bit of only having it controlled for some users, not others. Either you're in controlled airspace, or you're not. This stupid "Class E" rubbish of only controlling one type of user is pointless and dangerous.
  • How does my current operator avoid Class G and E? There are a couple of exceptions where it's not possible. However on descent into Brisbane, Perth and Melbourne in particular, we have to monitor all the steps to ensure we stay well away from them. Here's a better case to put to CASA. Why do we have E under C approaching major aerodromes that don't fit the profile of the current generation of aircraft?

I'd only support your case for approach services at busy aerodromes (Emerald is a classic case!) if the class of airspace was C only.

morno
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 01:20
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Must be a federal election coming up?
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 05:33
  #52 (permalink)  
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Morno. You appeared to be obsessed with getting info on VFR. Could this be because at one time all VFR flew full position when above 5000' at IFR levels and that was 80% of the traffic you received .

Other countries show that there is no rational safety reason for this obsession .

The US FAA doesn't even recommend VFR have a radio in Class G and E.
I wonder why?

It's because mandating radio for VFR in G and E has no measurable effect on safety.
My suggestion is that you keep vigilant in all airspace when in VMC.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 07:39
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Dick Smith
Blame the pilot. Good pilots don't need ATC and radar! 1920's Class G forever.

Originally Posted by Dick Smith
The US FAA doesn't even recommend VFR have a radio in Class G and E.
I wonder why?

My suggestion is that you keep vigilant in all airspace when in VMC.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 07:45
  #54 (permalink)  
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Hempy. The first post you have quoted was satirical!
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 20:56
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Do some reading, people. RFFA into Ballina and three other sites...including Port Hedland...is due to pax numbers kicking past the threshold. These rules were set years ago by someone who thought sites were over serviced...now at these sites sounds like sour grapes.

Lowering class E will not work over Ballina because the SSR cuts out or is very intermittent below 5000. Put class E where there is no chance to monitor ALL traffic in that space is a recipe for disaster with the poor guy on the other end of the mike taking the hit. The alternative is one in, one out. Not a good outcome.

To reiterate Capn Bloggs...Either SSR/ transponder or ADS-B on ALL and you can have whatever airspace model you fancy. Put a receiver in at sites that go past a movement threshold goes a long way to making the circuit/app environment safer if you MUST monitor remotely...otherwise...this I just the same argument that has played endlessly for over the last decade.
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Old 22nd Dec 2014, 00:49
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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How about a scenario Dick, YHBA, no ATC comms on the ground except for the RPT's with big powerful radio's. Weather just above the take off minima. It is genuine IMC, and Class E begins within 20 seconds of wheels off. What do I do?

A: Take off and circle at 700AMSL ? or worse intercept track?
B: Bust the CTA deliberately while obtaining a code and clearance and keep her climbing through to 3500 or so?
C: Phone a friend? Call ATC by phone and get a clearance.
D: Turn transponder off and fly into E then G and tell nobody?

Give ASA the tools by rules and budget to have the infrastructure in place and sure thing.

By the way, I have sat on the grass at OSH with a few airline guys at OSH chewing the fat over some of your ideas on how they do things, and they can't comprehend it. As for jet RPT operations in class G……their eyes do this >>
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Old 22nd Dec 2014, 07:49
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe each Airservices fire station should come with an ADSB ground station fitted on top.

Last edited by sunnySA; 22nd Dec 2014 at 07:49. Reason: typo
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Old 22nd Dec 2014, 09:00
  #58 (permalink)  
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Jaba. Of course low level E can't possibly work.

Once you get a bit of bad weather the the FAA NAS system basically closes down. Those stupid Americans. They should copy our system where there is no prescribed separation standard at all in Class G so airline aircraft get no delays.

They probably hardly ever get IMC conditions in the USA. That can only be the explanation on how their system works.

How did they ever get to the moon!
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Old 22nd Dec 2014, 12:43
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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There is no money for any of this.
There is not enough controllers for any of this.
There isn't enough consoles.
The public do not care.
This is at least the fifth time we have beaten this track.
Its the same old crap, it's either class E everywhere/you all have your heads in the sand/the evil military are stopping me doing stuff.

For Christ sake, go and enjoy x-mas with your family.
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Old 22nd Dec 2014, 18:49
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SunnySA...EXACTLY!
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