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Australian Industry & CASA Meeting, 17 December

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Australian Industry & CASA Meeting, 17 December

Old 20th Dec 2014, 03:47
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: AU
Posts: 46
But of a side note however can anyone confirm when Navathe is departing avmed???
C206driver is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2014, 03:50
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Expressions and actions of good faith on both sides will be needed to start and keep the ball rolling, however slowly.
I've been flying for 42 years. How bloody slow do you want? Crash through tactics can work. Look at the huge backlog of absolutely necessary changes the Whitlam government pushed through in just 3 years.

Even this current government may be capable of sudden and radical change. On today's news it was mooted that the Federal Department of Education might be dumped entirely and its' role be entirely assumed by the states. Think of the $s saved with that removal of duplication.

If they can do that they can easily sack CASA and outsource aviation regulation to NZ or USA.

A precedent is already out there. Asylum seekers are imprisoned and guarded by a pommie security firm. Pilots and aviation companies seem to be held in no higher esteem than asylum seekers so why not be run by a foreign nation?

Good faith in CASA was lost years ago. If we continue down that track all us older pilots will be dead long before one iota of meaningful change comes about.
rutan around is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2014, 06:16
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,480
Arm out the window:

Yes, but what do you really do, in the real world?
In the real world one does lots as I have had to do with venture (vulture) capitalists.

1. Immediate ban by industry and associations on consulting or cooperating with CASA. One achieves this by a polite refusal to consult stating that you "fail to understand" what it would achieve. Be aware that if CASAs mind is already made up, all you are doing by consulting is providing them a fig leaf in the form of diffusion of responsibility for the regulators actions.

If consultation is unavoidable, ask for a written and prearranged agenda. Prepare your own position paper, present it, ask for questions, stick strictly to the agenda and then leave. Refuse to engage socially except for a cup of coffee.

2. In dealings with CASA beyond simple submission of forms, ask for a lawyer to be present and permission to record the conversation.

3. Do not engage in the show cause process as has been explained by others.

4. Apply political pressure using the mantra "jobs, investment, growth" as in "how will this (action by regulator) affect jobs, investment and growth?". Repeat this mantra at every opportunity.

If everyone does this without exception, CASA is effectively in coventry until it demonstrates by its actions that it is dealing in good faith.

To put that another way, pretend your next door neighbour is a venture capitalist who will sell your children into slavery if given half a chance.
Sunfish is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2014, 06:56
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Some more ideas for the real world.(Originally posted on the Thanks CASA post)

We need a very strong union. Most people think of knuckle draggers in the AWU or BLF or some water side union when strong unions are mentioned.

Actually the strongest union in Australia is the Australian Medical Association (AMA) Most don't associate them with knuckle dragging nor do many associate them with many losses in a stoush.

We need to form the APA (Australian Pilots Association) It should have a once only joining fee of $1,000 and all pilots should be strongly persuaded to join not by force but logic. Show the history of what has happened to perfectly innocent pilots and companies chewed up by an arrogant out of control administration. $1,000 is real cheap compared to a do it yourself defence.

If 30,000 pilots joined up we would have a $30 million fighting fund which could be used to defend pilots through the civil courts where only real evidence can be used. We could persue criminal CASA and ex CASA agents through the the courts where they have been found to have fabricated evidence.

We could act politically in marginal seats and highlight the utter waste non data based decisions cause. We could highlight the lunacy of spending 20 years and $200 million rewriting regulations in a language not understood by 99% of pilots and not available anyway.

We could push to adopt the FAA system and show how millions could be saved.

We might even bring about a miracle and see Warren Truss rise in Parliament and give a scintillating speech lighting the fire to bring these sorely needed changes to fruition. After all if Jabiru is not in his electorate it's not far away.

But first we have to light a fire among our fellow pilots. If things keep going the way they're heading Australia will only have Military and Airline flying.

We we need to return to government of the people by the people FOR the people and not have the CASA system where it's government of aviation by CASA for CASA.
rutan around is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2014, 09:51
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 449
A union with a $1,000 joining fee? Are you insane? No GA pilot could afford that.
Cynical Pilot is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2014, 10:52
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Don't you mean no GA pilot can afford not to join. We're in the almost hopeless position we now find ourselves because of addle brained thinking.

What does $1,000 represent? A few % of the cost of a basic licence, less than 1% of a commercial licence, a quarter of one years insurance for a private aircraft and less than 10% of one years insurance on a charter aircraft.

If CASA was pulled into line and forced to operate on data and evidence the once only $1,000 would be recouped many times over and no pilot would live in fear of drawing the short straw in the insane lottery of interpreting correctly CASA's impossibly numerous , poorly written conflicting rules or doing battle due to some arbitary decision of some incompetent inexperienced officer.

United we stand,divided we fall.
rutan around is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2014, 11:48
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 449
Until recently it was a fortnight's pay AFTER tax. You're kidding yourself.
Cynical Pilot is offline  
Old 20th Dec 2014, 22:56
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Until recently it was a fortnight's pay AFTER tax. You're kidding yourself.
I rest my case.
rutan around is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 03:58
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 449
Are you familiar with the principles of economics? One has to afford to live. I wish I could just go out and splash 1,000 on something. It just isn't going to happen. Most single GA pilots at the lower end (i.e. the vast bulk) are living pay cheque to pay cheque.
Cynical Pilot is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 12:59
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
principles of economics?
Prince of where? I'm just a busted arse occasional pilot who always thought you have to spend money to make money.

If you have a commercial pilots licence you have already spent in the vicinity of $50k. If you had a $50k car I'm sure you'd pay $1,000 every year to insure it yet you balk at a once only payment of $1,000 to protect the licence you worked so hard to obtain and the aviation future you hope to make for yourself.

You may think you will never fall foul of CASA because you don't break any rules. If that's the case you need to think again.

I personally know 6 people who have had their lives put through the wringer over essentially nothing. Two eventually recieved some sort of half arsed compensation from CASA, two gave up the unfair fight as costs approached $1m ,one was found not guilty and is still chasing compensation and one has a case ongoing with exceedingly dubious evidence from CASA.

There are many others I know about but don't know the pilots personally. If you want to educate yourself about what might happen to you a good place to start would be to read Paul Phelan's work. Perhaps start with 'Birds, what birds'?

Of course a strong united union would have many other benefits as such as ensuring aviation has a future in this country and that you have a job that pays more than $500 per week.
rutan around is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2014, 13:45
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,942
Show me the justification for these changes, and the cost benefit analysis....
What problem is CASA trying to fix??
CASA must have done a full risk analysis and cost/benefit justification, because CASA told the ASRR, in a written submission, that all recommendations of the Hawke Inquiry had been fully incorporated by CASA (The same Dr. A.Hawke, AC who is "Chairperson" of CASA), and one of the Hawke recommendations was that the Byron Directive 1/2007 be adopted (as it had been by Bruce Byron -- over much near revolt by the "Iron Ring" -- resulting in the immediate involuntary departure from CASA of the leader of the revolting).

For those of you who don't remember, (and it is no longer on the CASA web site, presumably because it has been incorporated -- or is there another reason it has disappeared, like so much else that used to be available -- "Year Zero" being about 2010) Directive 1/2007 required all regulation to have a risk management justification, and resort to regulation was to be a last resort, not the first, and then it had to be cost/benefit justified -- in short, Government legislative policy/OBPR guidelines were mandatory.

I do hope nobody suggests that the CASA submission to the ASRR/Forsyth Inquiry contained a few porkies -- they wouldn't do that, would they, to their own Chairperson???

Tootle pip!!
LeadSled is offline  
Old 24th Dec 2014, 14:25
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 449
rutan around you do live in lala land. no low level ga worker is getting around in a 50k car unless he/she is married to a high income earner. have you never seen the assorted rubbish parked around flying schools/charts businesses?
Cynical Pilot is offline  
Old 24th Dec 2014, 21:27
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Queensland
Posts: 686
Have a happy Christmas Cynical Pilot. We'll continue this discussion in a couple of days time. I note the time you posted and I am making allowances that your apparent lack of comprehension of the subject being discussed may be chemically related. I want some of whatever you're on. It must be good.
Cheers RA
rutan around is offline  

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