GA Private Ramp Check questions...

[thunderbird five]

Yes, a good tip there Howard. Don't poke the bear.
But, I wonder if Ramp Check is just a big con. It isn't featured by that name in any regulation I can find, and I've not yet found the topic elsewhere in the regs. I think it will exist, in some cryptic fashion.
I'm reliably informed the following took place early this year:




There once was a couple ramp checkers,


Who thought they had quite large peckers.


They hopped the fence at Point Cook Airshow,


And headed off airside to go play Rambo.


The RAAF police weren’t having any of this,


Told them to leave, and don’t stop for a piss:


"This is not a civilian airfield – get your asses back over that fence, NOW!"

[Squawk7700]

That's funny thunderbird because that's what happened and it couldn't have happened to someone so deserving.

Get your arse behind the fence meow

[Duck Pilot]

Be careful what you say to an FOI or AWI on a ramp check, however in all cases be honest and don't let them intimidate you. If you can't answer their questions be very direct and tell them that you don't know the answer.

If they are going to issue you with an NCN , take them to task there and then and get all the details. The gestapo behaviour hopefully will become a thing of the past. There are some good people in CASA who are trying to make a consolidated effort to turn the reputation of the place around, sadly these people have been the minority up until recently. As a result of the governments response to the review and the new DAS starting on Jan 1, I recon there might actually be a major reshuffle internally , a clean out of dead wood and even some good jobs for younger people with industry expertise to join CASA to help make the industry a healthier environment to work in.

[Arnold E]

appropriate current charts;

This is the one that gets me, how many geological features move around that much as to cause a hazard to navigation in Oz?

[Aussie Bob]

IMHO for private operations just an Ipad will suffice. The backup is up to the pilot, not casa.

For commercial ops it is whatever the ops manual states ...

[Stationair8]

Air BP had a card made detailing all that was required on a ramp check.

[thorn bird]

For commercial ops, when the volume of paper work and shelfware equals the volume of the passengers your good to go.


Probably have to remove a seat but, to accommodate all the Part 61 shelfware alone.

[Sunfish]

Aussie Bob:

IMHO for private operations just an Ipad will suffice. The backup is up to the pilot, not casa.

Correct, but you do need a backup in some form. Personally, I keep the paper charts. I also find when touring, that marking our position on a paper chart is something useful a passenger can do to keep them occupied as well as satisfying the VFR position determination requirement.

The latest definitive guide for AOC holders covers the issues I think.

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset.../ops/233_1.pdf

[Jabawocky]

Sunfish,

Correct, but you do need a backup in some form.

Is this in your private or commercial flying? Commercial no doubt.

[adzA]

I'm wondering the same.

It makes no sense to get an EFB as a private pilot for local flying (where you won't be referring to anything) if you still require paper as well, just spending more money.

I've heard a number of PPL's mention that they use an iPad because it covers everything, is cheaper than paper (in the long run) and they don't require anything else - but reading the ramp checks list has me confused if this is the case or not.

[BlatantLiar]

(where you won't be referring to anything)

For this reason I can't wait for ozrunways to be released on android. Buy a few $100 cheapo aldi tablets and stick them in the aircraft I fly and I'm done. Winner winner chicken dinner.

[Aussie Bob]

adzA, you are way over thinking all this. Grab your Ipad and go flying. Your chance of being ramp checked is so small it is almost non existant and nothing untoward will happen to you if all you carry is an Ipad for your paperwork.

Your type of mind set generally precedes giving flying up. Fixating on rules in this game is soul destroying.

[BlatantLiar]

Your type of mind set generally precedes giving flying up. Fixating on rules in this game is soul destroying.

This. /lock thread.

[adzA]

All I'm trying to do is find out what is the minimum required of me so that I'm fine if I get ramp checked.

It seems others have given up and wont' fly to various events for fear of ramp checks. I would have thought that my desire to make sure I'm compliant and prepared (without spending more than I need) would have indicated that I'm more likely to stick around instead of quit.

I admit - I didn't think it would be this difficult or confusing. I shouldn't have to rely on the odds of whether I get ramp checked or not to be OK. It's disappointing that this seems unachievable and there's so many gray areas instead of clean answers to the point where I'm encouraged just to play the odds instead.

[KRviator]

Originally Posted by adza

I admit - I didn't think it would be this difficult or confusing. I shouldn't have to rely on the odds of whether I get ramp checked or not to be OK. It's disappointing that this seems unachievable and there's so many gray areas instead of clean answers to the point where I'm encouraged just to play the odds instead.

Let's look into the actual rules and what they say, and throw *my* take on it, and see what the consensus is.

First off. CAsA appoints "investigators" under Section 32AA of the Civil Aviation Act, or "Authorised Persons" under CAR6, and they must carry their ID card. No card? You don't have to comply. Or even acknowledge them as you turn and walk away.

IF they are appointed under CAR6, the following regulations may be attached to their appointment - ie, if they have "Regulation 50D", they can ask to see aircraft maintenance records...

• subregulation 30(4) - deals with inspecting aircraft, components & materials.
• subregulation 33(2) - deals with inspecting aircraft, components & materials to ascertain competence of maintenance people.
• regulation 43A - Says they can inspect the maintenance release
• regulation 50D - Says they can inspect maintenance records
• regulation 53 - Says they can investigate defects, however, if they want to look at records associated with with the investigation, they must order it in writing.
• regulation 227 -Says they can enter the flight deck, but only if the PIC is satisfied doing so won't endanger the aircraft.
• regulation 290 - Says they can shoot on or over a Federal airport.
• regulation 302 - Says they can look at your logbook, aircraft logbook, passenger manifest, freight manifest "or other documents relating to the aircraft"
• regulation 310B -
• acting under regulation 305. - Says they can enter any premises during working hours, and at "all reasonable times" have access to aircraft for the purposes of inspecting the aircraft
  
  CASA MUST NOT enter a premises without consent, and when asking for consent, MUST tell you that consent may be refused and may be withdrawn at any time. Should it be granted, they can do pretty much whatever they like. Take samples, photos, sketches, interview people, etc. CAA Sect 32ACB. So tell them no, they can't come in! But if they have a Reg305 permission, looks like you're screwed! :P
  
  CAsA gives the following guidance here for ramp checkee's.
  
  
  
  Originally Posted by CAsA

  The inspector will ask you for your CASA pilot licensing documents

Originally Posted by CAsA

• Flight crew licence (FCL) – You must carry your current licence and photographic ID. [Paper or electronic copy of licence acceptable]
• Aviation medical certificate – You must carry your current aviation medical certificate. You must be compliant with any restrictions or endorsements (e.g. the wearing of corrective lenses)[Paper or electronic copy of medical certificate acceptable]

The inspector will then check your preparation for your flight

Flight plan

• Have you maintained a navigation/fuel log?
• Have you made a careful study of forecast weather and applicable NOTAMs?
• Are you compliant with CASA flight time limitations (as applicable)?
• Are you carrying the appropriate, current charts and documents? Are they easily accessible by the crew?
• Are you using an EFB for your charts and documents? There are considerations for commercial versus private operations.
• Have you submitted a flight plan (if required by AIP)?
  Finally, the inspector will check your aircraft
  
  
  The inspector will check:
• Aircraft maintenance release
• Is the daily inspection signed off correctly?
• Are all required airworthiness directives completed and signed off?
• Are there any outstanding aircraft unserviceable items to be signed off?
• Flight manual (if required)– is it up-to-date?
• Checklists (normal and non-normal) — are they up-to-date and accessible to crew. [Paper or electronic copy of checklist acceptable]
• Evidence of pilot and passenger weights (standard weights should not be used in aircraft with fewer than 7 seats) Evidence of cargo weights (if carried) and appropriate securing equipment.
• Load sheets (if required)
• Required emergency equipment on board, serviceable and accessible.

Document references

Flight crew licence & aviation medical certificates

• Carriage of documents – CAR 139
• Flight review – CAR 5.108
• Recent experience – CAR 5.109

Operations

• Navigation logs – CAR 78
• Fuel requirements – CAR 234
• Weather and NOTAM – CAR 233 & AIP ENR 1-10 paragraph 1.
• Flight plan submission AIP ENR 1-10 paragraph 2.
• Flight time limitations – CAO 48.1 and CAAP 48.1
• Charts and documents – CAR 139 and AIP ENR 1.10 paragraph 5.
• EFBs – CAO 82.0, CAR 233 and CAAP 233-1(1)
• 
  Aircraft

• Carriage of maintenance release – CAR 139
• Carriage of flight manual – CAR 139
• Check lists – CAR 232
• Carriage of passengers – CAO 20.16.3 – CAAP 235
• Carriage of cargo – CAO 20.16.2.
• Load sheets and passengers lists – CAO 20.16.1
• Emergency equipment – CAR 252A – CAO 20.11

CAR139 requires you carry the following documents at all times when operating wholly within Australian Territory:

• The Maintenance Release or an approved alternative, unless CAsA has authorised otherwise.
• The licence & medical certificate of the pilot(s).
• The flight manual, if it has one.
• If you're carrying any cargo, the bill of lading & manifest.

Note: You are not required to carry your logbook, however, CASR 61.365 requires you to produce it within 7 days. You can also keep an electronic copy, however, to "produce" this logbook, you must print out and sign each page as true & correct.


CAsA's reference to a Flight Review under CAR 5.108 refers to CPL holders only, not PPL's. However an identical requirement is found in CAR 5.81. You must have had a AFR within the previous two years. But without your logbook on site, how do you prove it? You can't and they can't prove otherwise. So so long as you've done it all's good.

You must also have had 3 takeoff's and 3 landings (off 3 separate approaches, presumably!) within the previous 90 days, in order to carry passengers. IF you're flying at night, these must be at night. CAR 5.82 refers. But as above, no logbook on site, no proof you're not current.

You are not required to keep a navigation log per se'. However, CAR 78 requires you to keep a log of such data "to enable you to fix your position at any time in flight". On a local junket, so long as you don't get lost (and what are the odds of that, really?), you've kept sufficient data to know your position I reckon.

CASR234 requires you to have sufficient fuel to operate the flight safely. This is subjective and will rely on your judgement, but the rules show guidance in relation to delayed landing clearance, depressurisation, engine failures in twins, etc. Most of which you're unlikely to confront on a local junket, but if you take off for a 90 minute junket with minimum fuel and a front forecast to hit 60 mins after takeoff, you could find yourself in the **** if you get ramped. Show you had fuel to hold for an hour, you should be alright. Common sense applies here. Good luck!

Pre-flight prep, weather & Notams. CAR 233 does not require you to check Notams, only that you have sufficient fuel on board & required equipment & instruments are functioning & the weight and balance are within limits.

AIP 1-10 requires you to look over ("must study") all info appropriate to the operation, and for flights away from the vicinity of an aerodrome, you must look at the weather, notams, etc. You do not need printed copies. You do not need notams & weather if you are remaining within the vicinity of your aerodrome. And you do not need to produce these documents to CASA even if you have them.

If you nominate a SARTIME to ATS or plan to operate in CTA other than Class E you must submit a flight plan. If you're staying in E or G, and don't want SAR, then you don't need a flight notification.


CAO 48.1 mainly relates to CPL & AOC holders, however, for PPL's you must not commence a flight if you will go over 30 hours in 7 days, 100 hours in 30 days, or 900 hours in 365 days. If you fly for a living and your employer can't roster you because you'll go over hours, you can't fly for fun either.


CAR 233 requires you to carry current maps & charts applicable for the route to be flown, provided by the AIP or someone approved in writing. OzRunways (and presumably AvPlan too) are approved in writing, so you can use Ozrunways instead of paper charts.


EFB's... CAO 82.0 does not apply to PPL's, only AOC holders operating Charter, AWK and RPT. CAR233 provides for OzRunways as a data source. There is no requirement for a backup for PPL's, either paper or another EFB, however you are required to have access to the relevant charts throughout the flight. "What happens if you drop your ERSA from the front cockpit of a Drifter?" I hear you ask... I dunno.


Personally, I'd have OzRunways on the iPad and a backup on the iPhone. The iPhone screen size is too small, but it's a backup, not primary. That's assuming you even need charts on your local junket...


Checklists. If your aircraft has them, they must be carried. CAR232(3).


You may carry 5 people in a 172, if two children occupy a single seat and don't weigh more than 77Kg combined. You do not require the names of passengers if you're operating a PVT flight.


If your plane has more than 1 seat, you must carry an ELT if beyond 50nm and it must be registered with AMSA! Portable ones must meet AS/NZS 4280.2:2003 or FAA TSO C91a and C126.

[djpil]

Thanks for the link, but unfortunately that page just looks like a web version of the link in my original post - doesn't actually answer the questions I have.

adzA, I have marked up my own copy of that document with my own notes from reading the referenced regs etc to see what actually applies to myself.
I am aware of FOIs using ramp checks as an education process so if you do reasonable stuff (perhaps just like you were taught?) then you should survive it. On the other hand, I heard a rumour here about some-one getting a hefty fine for not having a spare pair of specs with him at a ramp check?

[Jabawocky]

adzi

Refer to this thread and read carefully all my posts. ready carefully.
http://www.pprune.org/pacific-genera...b-oz-rwys.html

Hope that helps with that question.

[gchriste]

Fantastic detailed response KR. Sums up much of what I assumed (studying for RPL at the moment).

[Aussie Bob]

All I'm trying to do is find out what is the minimum required of me so that I'm fine if I get ramp checked.

We have told you.

It seems others have given up and wont' fly to various events for fear of ramp checks.

These are the folk who know they will be overweight/outside limits and can't be bothered making an effort. Ignore them.

For what its worth on my last (and only) ramp check I had forgotten to sign the maintenance release

The dude from casa gave me the opportunity to sign it. Their idea is usually education, not harassment these days (from my observations).

[tecman]

Helpful posts from Bob and KRviator, I reckon. Personally, I don't find it too onerous and offer my own implementation as a suggestion as to how to handle the Sunday pie-run requirements.

I have a lightweight laptop wallet with a few zip compartments. The wallet lives in my "big" flight bag. Within the wallet - in various compartments - live my iPAD, a couple of VNC and ERC(L) charts, printouts of a couple of ERSA local aerodrome diagrams, licence/logbook, spare specs, ASIC, phone, money wallet, keys and emergency Minties. The idea is that I can quickly grab the laptop wallet and go for the Sunday jaunt in the puddle-jumper, with minimum overhead.

Within the puddle-jumper, I keep all the legally required documents (MR, flight manual etc) plus an operations log in which all flight times, fuel in/out etc are noted.

A lot of this stuff is common sense and only a little bit of attention to regulatory nuances gets you happily into the air for that $100 pie.