Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions
Reload this Page >

Planned Media Release re CASA Misinformation

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

Planned Media Release re CASA Misinformation

Old 3rd Nov 2014, 04:10
  #181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,055
Dick, As a pilot and ATC I know what I thought of NAS
Waypoint NASUX at the time was slipped in for good reason
CaptainMidnight is offline  
Old 3rd Nov 2014, 06:56
  #182 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Yosemite
Age: 47
Posts: 177
No surprise in all this. Australia has been slowly turning into a Gulag for some time. Liberal governments changing the laws to suit themselves, the eradication of freeness of speach, the government circumventing parliament, hiding information on boat arrivals, trying to usurp our basic rights and now, effectively, gag Journo's. You might as well name our country North Korea.
And not to mention the way the government systematically stymies transparency and honesty by turning a blind eye to some highly critical and factual evidence of Government corruption and malfeasance in the public service sector which oversights and advises on the aviation industry.

It's a disgrace
Soteria is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 02:42
  #183 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,155
I get my area frequencies off the IFR charts when in remote areas

How does a VFR pilot obtain the area frequency boundary information when in an area not covered by a VTC or VNC?

Captain. NAS was the 747 of airspace and our present system is like the australian designed Nomad aircraft.

I agree. There are still a few who reckon the Nomad was OK

It's called delusion !
Dick Smith is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 03:53
  #184 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Victoria
Posts: 707
I get my area frequencies off the IFR charts when in remote areas

How does a VFR pilot obtain the area frequency boundary information when in an area not covered by a VTC or VNC?
I always look at the appropriate chart, Dick. It's called the ERC Low. But I find Ozrunways very handy these days, too.

Don't you ever just fly down below 10,000' looking out the window for a bit of fun?

It's called delusion !
Bit of it going around at the moment, apparently.

Kaz
kaz3g is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 05:28
  #185 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,155
Are you saying that VFR pilots must subscibe to IFR charts to get the required info to fly VFR?
Dick Smith is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 06:05
  #186 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Abeam Alice Springs
Posts: 939
Kaz... Ever tried to copy an area frequency boundary from an ERC(L) to a WAC? or better still from a little screen?? Your error might be 25 or 30 miles!
triadic is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 06:43
  #187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
Posts: 3,052
Dick and triadic

VFR pilots have to have access to ERC(L), in order to know the location and boundaries of Romeo and Delta areas, and airspace boundaries, that are outside the coverage of VTCs and VNCs.

Are you suggesting otherwise?
Creampuff is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 06:48
  #188 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Queensland
Age: 35
Posts: 71
I get my area frequencies off the IFR charts when in remote areas

How does a VFR pilot obtain the area frequency boundary information when in an area not covered by a VTC or VNC?
Are you saying that VFR pilots must subscibe to IFR charts to get the required info to fly VFR?
They probably should so that they have an idea of where PRDs are located.
Check_Thrust is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 07:07
  #189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Elsewhere
Posts: 334
Captain. NAS was the 747 of airspace and our present system is like the australian designed Nomad aircraft.
I always thought NAS was the Hughes H-4 of airspace.
itsnotthatbloodyhard is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 07:33
  #190 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,155
Many VFR pilots I have spoken to have difficulty in working out what the correct frequency is when at 8500 in areas where there are different frequencies allocated above and below 8500.

It's a complex nightmare for many- amazing how all the other leading aviation countries in the world don't have such complexity. But we wouldn't even want to know how they do it

We must never copy the success of others Keep the concrete set
Dick Smith is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 08:52
  #191 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oz
Posts: 61
Many VFR pilots I have spoken to have difficulty in working out what the correct frequency is when at 8500 in areas where there are different frequencies allocated above and below 8500.

It's a complex nightmare for many- amazing how all the other leading aviation countries in the world don't have such complexity. But we wouldn't even want to know how they do it
Oh for god's sake Dick. I'm getting cross now...

When I was still a student pilot, I was taught that upper airspace limits are inclusive; lower limits are exclusive. If you're at the base level of a piece of airspace, you're not in it. The same applies worldwide. I don't remember anyone having trouble with the concept when I later worked as an instructor.

If "many VFR pilots" have trouble grasping this, a quick chat with someone who knows would clear up their glaring ignorance of basic rules.

So, is this the best case you can make for claiming that the current airspace model needs yet another revision? We've established that the original threat of innocent bodies cascading from RPT jets in the stratosphere is invalid. We also know that the required frequencies to monitor are listed on the same charts used by any responsible pilot to avoid PRD areas. Now we're supposed to rejig the whole system because a few people get confused when they cruise at 8500'?

I'm no longer sure what the agenda is here. You may even have some valid points to make, even if I don't agree with them. But whatever laudable goals you have for the betterment of GA are lost in the noise, when you employ specious arguments such as these.

There's already enough uninformed opposition to the practice of flying light aircraft around the country. You know that your comments inevitably find their way into the slavering jaws of the mass media. Please don't give them more material with which to discredit our activity, by using wildly shifting and hyperbolic anecdotes to support your view.
Agrajag is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 09:07
  #192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Richmond NSW
Posts: 1,207
Very well articulated, Agrajag. I entirely agree with you.
gerry111 is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 10:01
  #193 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Victoria
Posts: 707
Ever tried to copy an area frequency boundary from an ERC(L) to a WAC? or better still from a little screen?? Your error might be 25 or 30 miles!
Thank goodness for Ozrunways then.

Many VFR pilots I have spoken to have difficulty in working out what the correct frequency is when at 8500 in areas where there are different frequencies allocated above and below 8500.

It's a complex nightmare for many- ....
Many, Dick? Many? Another piece of anecdotal effluvium. Not that many VFR pilots bother climbing that high and almost all of them will have Ozrunways with them, anyway.

Kaz

Last edited by kaz3g; 4th Nov 2014 at 10:17.
kaz3g is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 19:54
  #194 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
Posts: 3,052
I'm no longer sure what the agenda is here.
Always best to presume that, in Australia at least, the agenda is always more about politics, industrial relations or other sectional interests, dressed up as concerns about safety. It's exactly what's happening now with pilot CVD and a section of the medical and regulatory industry that's evolved to make a comfortable living out of scaring punters about non-issues.

Dick and triadic: I notice you've not bothered to answer my question whether you were suggesting VFR pilots are not obliged to have access to ERC(L).

I'll ask my question a different way: What would your advice be to VFR pilots who want to work out whether they are allowed to conduct the following flights:

A VFR jolly from William Creek DCT Prominent Hill DCT Coober Pedy DCT William Creek.

A VFR jolly with a leg Warren DCT Bourke.

A VFR jolly with a leg Parkes DCT Narromine.

(From my limited but first-hand experience, the ERC(L) is essential to working out whether, and if so when and at what altitudes, those jollies can be conducted.)

When a VFR pilot undergoing a flight review is given a diversion, to C, half way along a leg A to B, and all of A, B and C are outside the coverage of VTCs and VNCs, how does the pilot work out how to get to C in accordance with the rules? Any Romeo or Danger areas along the way? What are the hours of activation and altitudes? What if the pilot considers it would be prudent to obtain a TAF and NOTAMs for C?

(From my limited but first-hand experience, instructors will expect the candidate to check the ERC(L) to find out whether there are any airspace obstacles to getting to C, and to obtain a TAF and NOTAMs if the pilot doesn't already have access to them.)

But you're the experts.

Last edited by Creampuff; 4th Nov 2014 at 21:54.
Creampuff is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 21:07
  #195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: All at sea
Posts: 1,700
Not too many VFR pilots would venture outside their local circuit area without a Garmin and an iPad with Ozrunways. Assuming our hero has enough money to go flying in the first place, he has enough for these gizmos. Both of my devices have frequencies and airspace boundaries in a format that leaves no doubt which is applicable to current position. The Garmin terrain alert is set to 400 feet.
VFR became a whole lot easier and safer when these goodies came along.
Add a paper WAC or ONC to get you home at 1500 feet if all else fails. Otherwise the only use for paper in the cockpit is if you get caught short or have a bad fright.....
Mach E Avelli is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 21:15
  #196 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,155
Does the Ozrunways VFR package include the low level IFR charts ?

Amazingly in other countries a VFR pilot can use the VFR charts and be compliant.

Ours is a complex system for VFR and clearly not always complied with. Surely that's why in the last month I have not heard one circuit call on an area frequency.

Why the resistance to copying a proven simpler system where pilots can easily comply.
Dick Smith is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2014, 21:53
  #197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
Posts: 3,052
Of course those VFR packages do, Dick, because ERC(L) is a source of essential information for VFR operations outside the coverage of VTC and VNC.

This is a perfect of example of my point about copying the whole of the system that you want.

The US has VFR Sectional Charts covering the entirety of continental USA (and Alaska and the Hawaiian Islands etc). VFR Sectional Charts have a scale of 1:500,000 and, as well as depicting land data like cities, rivers and topography, also show airports, navigation aids and special use airspace, complete with frequencies.

There is no equivalent in Australia, once you’re beyond the coverage of VNCs.

There used to be an equivalent in Australia, called VEC – Visual Enroute Charts – but someone had them scrapped.

When VECs were scrapped, the only remaining source of airspace information essential for VFR operations beyond VNC coverage became ERC(L).

So Dick, when will you be arranging for VFR Sectional Charts to cover Australia, so VFR pilots will cease to be legally obliged to have access to ERC(L)? Surely you will agree that if you are going to "copy" a system, that must involve copying the whole of the system.

And PS: Remember that during the implementation of NAS, VFR pilots were advised to avoid IFR routes ...

Last edited by Creampuff; 5th Nov 2014 at 05:29.
Creampuff is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2014, 06:44
  #198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,055
Many VFR pilots I have spoken to have difficulty in working out what the correct frequency is when at 8500 in areas where there are different frequencies allocated above and below 8500.
Most if not all the areas you quote are in VNC coverage so if what you claim re VFR pilot difficulties interpreting charts is true, that's a sad indictment of the state of training.

Incidentally, where is it prescribed that ERC's are "IFR" only charts?

For the close on 40 years I've been in this game many VFR pilots have also used ERC Lows (and RNCs before them) both inside and outside visual chart coverage because of all the useful info on them, including tracks, distances & LSALTs between major locations, location of IFR waypoints and HPs etc. i.e. data which just isn't available on visual charts.
CaptainMidnight is offline  
Old 5th Nov 2014, 07:56
  #199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
VEC Visual En-route Chart.

Anyone remember this first class, free series of charts (back in the day). Like an ERC only without the tracks, distances, LSALT etc. Seems to me it would resolve this 'scuffle'. I still have a full series in the library – worked through the puzzles set earlier – a breeze, with the right gear (point to point lines, reporting points, aerodromes, beacons, boundaries, R and D areas and frequencies) all in. Perhaps 'whoever' is making the money out of printing a series of charts which require the VFR bloke (or blokette) to carry, or even consult an ERC should consider 're-thinking' the requirements of aircrew.

Good stuff, a bit like the 'Crash comic'; valuable, useful, informative and supporting 'safer' operations.

Just saying.
Kharon is offline  
Old 7th Nov 2014, 06:47
  #200 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Salt Lake City Utah
Posts: 3,052
When I was taught to fly, the 'old and the bold' said that in a pinch you could navigate safely VFR in Australia on VECs alone.

On reflection, as a middle aged wimp, I reckon they were correct.
Creampuff is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.